Question: Bombardment-delay mechanics

[Anton]

I need your help in understanding bombardment mechanics, because my experiments show that it does not work as documented in the game guide:

Shows the dely (sic!) in turns and fractions before the mission will arrive (arrives?). Fractions up to 0.4 do not delay, 0.5 will delay to the next turn, and then deliver half a fire mission (for HE, smoke). Thus an HE mission with 1.5 delay will arrive in the second turn from calling, drop 1/2 the amount of HE, and will then drop the remaining 0.5 load in turn 3 from call.

Perhaps I misunderstand something, but observe my experiment. I have chosen a German Batterie of four 15 cm sFH 18 howtizers with an experience of 86 and a morale of 78. The unit's rate of fire is five.

After I assigned it a mission, the delay was 2.1, so it was silent for two turns. By the end of the second turn, when the delay had become 0.1, I expected it to deliver the entire mission in the next turn, but I saw only twelve shells (3 per howtizer) and the mission was not finished. It was complete in the following turn, delivering sixteen shells, or a total of twenty-eight per mission.

When I assigned a repeat mission at the same location, it had a delay of 0.2 and again took two turns to complete, delivering eight shells in the following turn and sixteen more in the one after it. The following table summarizes the results:

Mission  Delay      I          II      Total
Initial   0.1    12 (4x3)   16 (4x4)    28
Repeat    0.2     8 (4x2)   16 (4x4)    24

They are reliably reproducible in scenario 149 SSVN at Rozan 9/39 with unit H0. Just make sure to move the HQ back out of harm's way and use it as the spotter. If required, I will provide a set of saved games demonstrating this.

My questions:

1. Both missions began with a small delay less than 0.5. Why did they not complete in a single turn, as documented?
2. Why was the repeat mission less efficient than the initial one, delivering 24 shells versus 28 in the initial mission?
3. How do these numbers correlate with the unit's experience and rate of fire?

[Imp]

Every 0.1 reduces the number of shells fired that turn so from most to least shells fired.
0.0 - 0.1 - 0.2 - 0.3 - 0.4 - 0.5

[Anton]

Is that some kind of inside knowledge? How did you find it out?

Why did my repeat mission start with a delay of 0.2? The aiming is already adjusted and they have to do is to continue firing.

[DRG]

"inside knowledge" of the game guide.....




As well the delay time is also tied to the experience and morale ( and health. ) of your gunners. A low exp and mor unit might have, for example a 5.2 delay but a unit with high exp and mor might be 3.5 AS WELL AS the observer unit that is calling the fire. An experienced FOO and gunners will work better and faster and more accurately than ones with less experience or who may have taken damage.

[Anton]

DRG,
you just posted a screenshot of the Game Guide fragment that I quoted in the opening post. What made you think I was unaware of it? On the contrary—I have read it and found it wrong, i.e. not reflecting the actual behavior of the game. I described an experiment that proves my statement. How would you interpret its outcome in terms of the quoted documentation for Delay?

It is the following comment by Imp that I suspected of being based on inside knowledge rather than on documentation, and still do:

Originally Posted by Imp

Every 0.1 reduces the number of shells fired that turn so from most to least shells fired.
0.0 - 0.1 - 0.2 - 0.3 - 0.4 - 0.5

You elaborate—

Originally Posted by DRG

As well the delay time is also tied to the experience and morale ( and health. ) of your gunners. A low exp and mor unit might have, for example a 5.2 delay but a unit with high exp and mor might be 3.5 AS WELL AS the observer unit that is calling the fire. An experienced FOO and gunners will work better and faster and more accurately than ones with less experience or who may have taken damage.

Thanks, but what are the exact dependencies? Without them one feels like groping in the dark. A more transparent explanation in the documentation and in the interface of what contributes to each specific delay value would make the game much more user-friendly. And now I am forced to discover the underlying algorithm by lots of testing, which is a long and tedious job.

[Mobhack]

Its really very simple

If the delay is fractional (<1) then the rounds will be falling at the end of the enemy turn/start of your turn to come. The higher the fraction, the less shells will be fired per tube - roughly based on 6 shots max per turn (.5 being 1/6) but rounded up. (6 shots seems to have been the intended max by SSI in the original game - but then they added experienced units getting more shots..)

If it is an AOP adjusting fire, then the delay added is less than for a regular HQ.

if the observer has no LOS to the impact, then the adjustment costs more.

Also note - if you want to adjust fire, do not press the HE (or smoke) buttons, instead go straight to the adjust button and move it. pressing the HE or smoke button to fire a the current hex is .1 delay whic is not added if you adjust without pressing the fire type button.

You have much more information in our game guide than SSI ever published in thier instruction pamphlet.

A couple of test games would give you all you need to know about calling arty. It is not rocket science.

NB - The exact number of shots fired in indirect fire also depends on the artillery type - tube arty, mortars and MRL all have different amounts of fire based on the ROF but not necessarily the same as the shown direct fire ROF. If you ar really interested then try firing s few missions with slow artillery and counting each and every round.

We wont be giving anyone the exact algorithms, ever - that was part of our NDA with SSI. We do give far more hints than they ever did though.

(edit - got my fraction 180 degrees out, .5 would be i out of 6)

[Imp]

This game is actually very good at explaining what things actually do unlike most modern games that are rubbish & give you no idea how the mechanics work.
It does not & should not give exact details you know the higher the rangefinder for example the better. Judging the difference between 6 & 22 is down to you, as are all the other factors that apply.

Same goes with this you know 0.4 is not going to drop many shells so your decision is fire this turn or adjust it so you get 1.0 or 1.1 & fire next turn.

If your targets dug in you might well go for the 0.4 as it allows you to adjust next turn & the target is unlikely to run.

If its mobile say SP Artillery in open ground delaying for a bigger fire mission in the hopes of a kill makes more sense as it will probably run if it survives the 0.4.

Cannot see any reason you need to know more about the delay procedure.

To help out in this decision smaller normally have a higher ROF than larger so firing something like a 60mm mortar at 0.4 is more worthwhile than firing 155mm at 0.4. Larger than that you will be lucky if it fires more than 1 shot at 0.4
The only other part of the decision making with artillery is your objective suppress (high ROF) or damage unit or terrain (high Kill or Pen depending on target type)

It does not take long to determine how the different mechanics combine no need to count the shells I never have.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Anton

It is the following comment by Imp that I suspected of being based on inside knowledge rather than on documentation, and still do:

The only "inside knowledge" Imp has is based on years of gameplay experience. He has had nothing to do with game development.

[sigeena]

Maybe what Anton is asking is to amend/ clarify the game guide. It may have been accurate previously, but the current artillery model behaves differently.

Talking about artillery, I used to like the heavier stuff, but I realised that I like my ground flat as well, so I've been switching over to lighter stuff again. I suppose anything with WH >4 is going to cause broken ground.

[Anton]

Originally Posted by sigeena

Maybe what Anton is asking is to amend/ clarify the game guide. It may have been accurate previously, but the current artillery model behaves differently.

That's it. I do ask to correct either the game or the documentation to remove the contradiction between them. By the way, it seems that the current undocumented behavior of the game is in fact better than its obsolete description in the game guide, so it is better to amend the guide. If this change in bombardment execution was intentional, then I thank the developers for it.

With the current behavior, the artillery is silent for a fraction of the first mission turn, but always delivers all it can in the continuation turn, which is logical. If the game worked as documented, the firepower of a single mission would be spread over two turns, reducing the average rate of fire by a factor of two.