POLL: Backstabbing

[Slynky]

Not sure if this sort of poll has been done before, but I REALLY like doing polls...so...

Several (10) questions on "backstabbing":

(as always, comments invited)

[Slynky]

I just took the poll and I realize some of the questions are "yes, but..." sort of questions and I apologize. I guess it's just part of the many reasons people can have when they make a decision to turn around and attack.

So, some questions may be hard to answer.

For example, people may agree to be allied some sort of way for a set number of turns. When those turns have ended, I don't consider it "backstabbing" to attack the turn after.

[Lisif Deoral]

Well... I suppose you should explain more or less exactly what you mean with "backstabbing"...

[DavidG]

"Do you consider it permissable to "backstab" an ally whom you feel wronged you?"

IMHO this one is not actaully backstabbing at all. If the ally 'wronged' you then he is the backstabber.

[Slynky]

Originally posted by Lisif Deoral:
Well... I suppose you should explain more or less exactly what you mean with "backstabbing"...

I thought most people who played lots of games where you made alliances would understand but perhaps not...so...

When you ally with someone knowing that you will use that alliance to "learn" about their empire and then drop the alliance and attack...

Or...

Ally with someone just to sneak ships past their minefields or protected warp holes and then drop the alliance when you are past their defenses...

Or...

Use your alliance to learn about someone's empire and then feed all the ship locations (etc.) to another person to attack you.

I think you get the picture.

[Slynky]

Originally posted by DavidG:
"Do you consider it permissable to "backstab" an ally whom you feel wronged you?"

IMHO this one is not actaully backstabbing at all. If the ally 'wronged' you then he is the backstabber.

This is one of the grey areas that couldn't be explained well in the short span of the question. For that, I apologize.

Wronged....OK...

You are allied and your optics discover a stealth/cloaked ship from one of your alies deep in your territory. Is that being wronged? Should you drop the alliance immediately and begin an attack? Or should you tell him to leave? And should you consider this action hostile? After all, it was in stealth mode? SO, is that wronged?

OR...

Your ally colonizes planets in "your" space...Is that being wronged?

OR...

Or, a big fleet enters "your" space. Is it headed to a destination that you can believe doesn't worry you? Did he give advance notice or just show up?

OR...

Did you agree on gifts of tech and he doesn't fulfill his agreements?

So, without trying to list all the "grey" areas, there are many Versions of "wronged".

Which makes the question a bit ambiguous...(sorry).

[Stone Mill]

Very interesting topic. very interesting questions.

I suggest you all become a bit more familiar with Machiavelli.

This game is about war, really, (unless someone has defined other game purposes). And good players play to win.

It's really difficult to feel like anyone did anything unjustly during a game (a.k.a "backstab"). Almost all examples you illustrared are valid.

It is somewhat the player's fault for allowing them to happen. With experience, It's up to you to do your best not to be put in these positions.

Believe it or not, there are preventative measures to enforce security for most of the examples you've mentioned.

When a player does "backstab," you better believe it is remembered, and even carried over into other games. That player will get a reputation for being "dirty" or maybe "ruthless." You will think twice before exposing yourself to them again. That is human nature, no matter how hard we try to be objective.

That is the unwritten rule that ties us together as gamers; we don't want to get a bad rep for being deceptive and sneaky (some would say clever)... yet it is very much part of the game. So we do it with some sort of honor.

Bottom line: everyone in the game is your enemy (unless your game has special rules). Get ready for war from turn #1. Alliances are temporary and pragmatic, and policy is worthless without force to back it up. Let it echo throughout known space...

[Slynky]

Very interesting comments. And valid.

Like you said, always remember your ally can (possibly) become your enemy.

When feasible, I have a list of requirements I try to approach potential allies with. So they know up front what I expect and what they can expect from me. For example, in the Tourney game, I have a partnersip with a person whom I will never cross, will help to defend, and for whom I owe my current position. That is a bond I swore to him. It will only break if (or when) it comes down to the winner being me or him.

I've played with people who fought against me from the beginning. Then, in another game, found myself in a position to work with them. That doesn't bother me. But like you said, if I had been backstabbed, I will always remember that person. And likely NOT make an agreement with him in the current game.

Good points, Stone!

[Geckomlis]

Originally posted by Stone Mill:
This game is about war, really, (unless someone has defined other game purposes). And good players play to win.

Too true. But my objective in playing is not to win. It is to have fun, exercise my intellect, and play with style. Simply winning is not enough. Betrayal can be performed with honor and dignity in my book.

[Lisif Deoral]

Well, such things usually happen in RL too. I would be disappointed for a sort of backstabbing that exploits the game weaknesses (or bugs), such as selling ships to one's partner and then declare war on him, while at the same time changing the ships' default strategy to "kamikaze!" or "don't get hurt", but "mundane" betrayal can actually be enjoyable if played "correctly"...

...also because should no one break any treaty the game would go on forever...

[Edit: typo]

[ June 05, 2003, 22:16: Message edited by: Lisif Deoral ]