Deception

[Cheezeninja]

i think its more amusing than anyone else. Yeah its kind of underhanded, but that fact that its created this giant hoopla of daytime television soap opera is hilarious. Its done nothing but maybe add another dimension to the trickery of this game, and i guarantee it wont be as successful next time.

[NTJedi]

Norfleet
What rules? The other games I'm in don't HAVE any rules.

When players sit down for a game of poker... if someone gives themself an edge by leaning backwards and looking into another players hand...... thats bending the rules. As a result when caught the other players will always look at you with distrust. What you did had the same effect.

Norfleet
Can you prove that was "pulling some dirty tricks just to try and win"? Or did I have other motives for perpetuating the deception which had nothing to do with winning or losing?

If you were hiding your identity and asking questions about other players actions towards your player in the game.... the knowledge gained will obviously provide you with an advantage. This advantage may determine who wins or loses the game.

[ May 25, 2004, 23:18: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Chazar:

So in response to what Vynd contributed: I'd say trying to obtain the enemy's plans by means of polite conversation and deliberate deception is a part of the game for me. When it comes to the game, the game is always on, regardless of the situation I am in when talking about it.

I accept that my "enemy" might not always tell the truth about his intentions, as do I. You have to reveal something true in order to regain something true, but just how much is the parlous question.....

Exactly. When I've asked questions or advice for a game in progress, I generally try to put in enough misleading, erroneous information to not give away the actual game and situation I'm looking for feedback on, which has usually been a question about a magic item, spell, or game mechanic I hadn't used before.

Talking about plans, in the open, on IRC, where there's half a dozen other entities idling on channel, is practically begging to have information used against you.

When playing poker - proper players don't try to sneak looks at each other's cards. But if someone is setting their cards down face up on the table, it's a fool who doesn't look.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
When playing poker - proper players don't try to sneak looks at each other's cards. But if someone is setting their cards down face up on the table, it's a fool who doesn't look.

Except here the person who looked denied being a fellow player in the poker game.

[Vynd]

It's my understanding that Norfleet did not just sit around waiting for people to mention what people were going to do in thise Fire and Ice game. Although I'm sure some of that went on. But unless Stormbinder is lying--and I'm sure Norfleet would have called him on it by now if he was--then Norfleet actively sought to engage people in conversation about the game, and specifically asked them questions about what they were going to do to his nation.

Could, or should, the other players have refused to talk to him about this? Well obvioulsy in this case, yes. And in a general sense, it probably isn't wise to give away information about what you're doing in a MP game. But even if Stormbinder and the rest acted somewhat foolishly, that doesn't change the fact that what Norfleet did was dishonest.

Norfleet conned these guys. If some con man were to convince your brother to buy the Brooklyn Bridge from him, I'm sure you'd chew your brother out for being an idiot. But I think you'd also be pretty angry at the guy who ripped him off.

[ May 26, 2004, 03:06: Message edited by: Vynd ]

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Vynd:
But even if Stormbinder and the rest acted somewhat foolishly, that doesn't change the fact that what Norfleet did was dishonest.

Quite. It's the dishonesty, outside the context of diplomacy, that I think is the cause of most of the ill-feeling we're seeing here. And it's dishonesty that continued after the game, when Norfleet was defending his actions here.

In the "Play the World" thread, he said:

Perhaps, except that I only asked him questions I already knew the answers to anyway.

What were these questions to which he knew the answers before they were given? According to Stormbinder (in the same thread) they were:

See, as a Norfleet he was constantly soliciting information from each of Pkahar Njar's (his alias in our game) neigbors with questions such as "So what are you going to do about Caelum?" (Caelum was Pakhar's nation). "How is your war against Caelum going?" , "How are you going to attack Caelum now?". (all these are exact quotes)

'Nuff said? Norfleet apparently thought so too, because he didn't respond when I presented him with this. Instead, he started a new thread with this comment:

Due to the rampant hijacking and derailing of the other thread, I'm not going to deign to respond to it and am going to let it die and sink back into the abyss where it came from.

For me, this is all about dishonest behaviour in public, and almost nothing to do with Dominions. So I'll leave it there.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
In the "Play the World" thread, he said:

quote:

---

Perhaps, except that I only asked him questions I already knew the answers to anyway.

What were these questions to which he knew the answers before they were given? According to Stormbinder (in the same thread) they were:

See, as a Norfleet he was constantly soliciting information from each of Pkahar Njar's (his alias in our game) neigbors with questions such as "So what are you going to do about Caelum?" (Caelum was Pakhar's nation). "How is your war against Caelum going?" , "How are you going to attack Caelum now?". (all these are exact quotes)

'Nuff said? Norfleet apparently thought so too, because he didn't respond when I presented him with this. Instead, he started a new thread with this comment:

Due to the rampant hijacking and derailing of the other thread, I'm not going to deign to respond to it and am going to let it die and sink back into the abyss where it came from.

For me, this is all about dishonest behaviour in public, and almost nothing to do with Dominions. So I'll leave it there.

---

I started a new thread because the contents were no longer relevant to the actual GAME: Bringing up matters from another deceased game to the a new game is not helpful or relevant. As the thread had been sufficiently derailed, I opted to jettison it.

As for the accusations in question, I have made my statement, intend to stand by it, and have deliberately chosen not to comment on the matter further.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Vynd:
[QB] It's my understanding that Norfleet did not just sit around waiting for people to mention what people were going to do in thise Fire and Ice game. Although I'm sure some of that went on. But unless Stormbinder is lying--and I'm sure Norfleet would have called him on it by now if he was ....

I've called Stormbinder on lying and misrepresenting the facts. Still haven't gotten him to reply to the question I asked, the issues I brought up.

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
As for the accusations in question, I have made my statement, intend to stand by it, and have deliberately chosen not to comment on the matter further.

I have no problem with that.

Perhaps you could provide a reference to your statement that addresses the accusations in question (that you claim to have known your opponent's plans before asking about them).

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Cainehill:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vynd:
[QB] It's my understanding that Norfleet did not just sit around waiting for people to mention what people were going to do in thise Fire and Ice game. Although I'm sure some of that went on. But unless Stormbinder is lying--and I'm sure Norfleet would have called him on it by now if he was ....

I've called Stormbinder on lying and misrepresenting the facts. Still haven't gotten him to reply to the question I asked, the issues I brought up.

---

Hmmm? I have no idea what you are talking about. All I have noticed so far in all your Posts is that you constantly defending Norfleet everywhere that you can, without any real regard to the facts or trying to listen to arguments of your opponents. And also claiming that you are not Norfleet's defender or appologist.

I don't know what strange psyhological bond you have with Norfleet, and I am not really interested in it. What really surprised me though, is that you told me here (for the first time) that you have known about Norfleet all along but choose not to tell anybody else, instead prefering to blame me for spoiling the game by "admiting norfleet's ringer" in our game. I still have your strange email in which you did so and I can post it here if you are going to dispute it. No matter what is the reason for your pecular behaivour I'll leave it on your conscience.


As for myself - I didn't lie in anything I told on this board about the facts of the game, so please stop saying obscure nonsense without any proof. I have also posted a lot of quotes and logs here and elsewhere, and our "Fire and Ice" thread is very clear and open for anybody to see. Even Norfleet himself could not dispute these facts, instead all he can do and what he have been doing here all along was trying to "explain" his dishonest and cheating behaviour - by pure "spining", admiting the facts but denying his motives, in extremely clumsy and unconvincing way.


And finally keep in mind that Zen asked everybody to drop this topic, and even send me email asking to do it. If you choose to continue this discussion I suggest do it elsewhere, on GoneGold Boards, emails, IRC, or whatever. I don't know about you, but I am not interested in geting Banned because of you trying to resurect dead and smelly horse Cainehill.

[ May 26, 2004, 07:18: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]