Tip: Template for reducing late game MM hell

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

Cumulative VPs just don't work. They are added only in the mid summer turn. So you are not rewarded for keeping it, just having it on one specific turn.

I slightly disagree with the "don't work" but I agree they are flawed. If Illwinter could award them every month that would make a very valid change however. I doubt they will, but if they ever plan a patch, I don't think it would be too long to code and it would probably make this victory condition usable and popular.

[WraithLord]

Originally Posted by Micah

Burden of Time is problematic because it's very low research, cheap, and unable to be countered aside from a direct gem-war with a dispel (boots of youth and other anti-aging items don't work against it). It also works the turn it is put up, so it can do some nasty damage even if it is immediately dispelled, especially if the caster chain-casts it.

It's also in the "dispel or lose" category for certain nations, and the mechanic is uses isn't at all fun or interactive.

But does it contribute to significantly raise endgame MM?
I'm not looking at this from balance or fun angle, only to reduce MM.

[Zeldor]

Dealing with lots of afflicted commanders increases MM for sure.

[DonCorazon]

Seriously, Zeldor's suggestion to get rid of hammers would save a ton of MM. In games with diplomacy/trading, everyone ends up with hammers anyway so the relative advantage is limited but the pain of having to swap hammers is limitless.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

Seriously, Zeldor's suggestion to get rid of hammers would save a ton of MM. In games with diplomacy/trading, everyone ends up with hammers anyway so the relative advantage is limited but the pain of having to swap hammers is limitless.

I'll reiterate - hammers allow for much more varied strategies because its not just cost savings - its cost savings in particular gems. Say for gems that you don't have many of because you have few mages (pretender, non-nationals) with those paths and no native gem generation at your capitol in that type.

Basically, lack of hammers limits nations to their national magic types far more than at present, at which point certain nations get better relative to other nations because they have better inherent magic paths/gem generation.

[DonCorazon]

i understand your point, but don't agree that the benefits of hammers are worth the tradeoff in MM pain. true magic diversification will depend primarily on luck anyways, in terms of finding indies in paths you need and once they site search adequately, your gem income should be fine. while i agree hammers make it easier to forge items in non-national paths, i don't think they are so crucial strategically. further, removing hammers might actually help improve one aspect of game balance. for example, nations with recruitable thugs which are generally OP relative to human nations won't be able to kit out their thugs as prolifically, which might make these nations more vulnerable to human troops and thus help even the scales a bit.

[P3D]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

for example, nations with recruitable thugs which are generally OP relative to human nations won't be able to kit out their thugs as prolifically, which might make these nations more vulnerable to human troops and thus help even the scales a bit.

Most recruitable thugs are kitted out already to some extent - save a few thuggable spellcasters.

Good idea to remove hammers (including the uniques). Just remove Forge and the bonus sites too- generators might even stay.

[Illuminated One]

Originally Posted by P3D

Say a Clam would cost say 15W10N (not 14 total with hammer), so it'd take 50 turns to pay for itself.

The problem with that is it doesn't fix the unlimited exponential increase.
Either you make them so costly that they don't pay off - supposing I expect the game to last 70 turns, I would hardly forge anything that pays of after 50 (*) turns after turn 20. And I will hardly forge any before that because I can't afford them. If I'm in an extremely large game that's unrealistic to be decided before turn 150 than clams ftw again. Unless you make their price dependent on the size or time of the game.

(*) but 15W10N pays of before 50 turns, because in late game each pearl is worth 2 gems. If you can wish quite literally because wishing for gems gives you 150 gems for 75 pearls.
If you can't, there's just 1000s of things to spend pearls on every turn, water gems are much less useful.

[DonCorazon]

Originally Posted by P3D

Most recruitable thugs are kitted out already to some extent - save a few thuggable spellcasters.

Good idea to remove hammers (including the uniques). Just remove Forge and the bonus sites too- generators might even stay.

i'm talking about the kind of gear that turns recruitables into human army wrecking machines - items that give awe, fear, luck, brands, shrouds on sacreds, etc.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

i understand your point, but don't agree that the benefits of hammers are worth the tradeoff in MM pain. true magic diversification will depend primarily on luck anyways, in terms of finding indies in paths you need and once they site search adequately, your gem income should be fine. while i agree hammers make it easier to forge items in non-national paths, i don't think they are so crucial strategically. further, removing hammers might actually help improve one aspect of game balance. for example, nations with recruitable thugs which are generally OP relative to human nations won't be able to kit out their thugs as prolifically, which might make these nations more vulnerable to human troops and thus help even the scales a bit.

Why don't we consider who the winners and losers are here?

First of all, its been my impression that Astral, Death, Nature, and Earth are where most of the good gear is.

Rlyeh: winner (MA and LA especially)
Good Astral, Death, Earth access, good site searching for all 3, capitol S income. National mages can forge all astral boosters without empowering. Here's a nation which doesn't really need the boost... And aquatic, so it gets to bundle most elemental site searching into water gem useage anyway.

Ashdod: winner
Astral, Death, Earth, good site searching for all 3, has capitol income for S,D at least. Here's another nation that really doesn't need a boost. I imagine Hinnom/Gath are in similar boats?

MA Oceania: Loser (probably EA too, but not familiar)
Nature, but otherwise only really water (with small amounts of earth and air - they generally have to beg or trade for a hammer, or put earth on their pretender). Pretender is only real way to get access to anything else - low gem input will severely hamper Oceania's ability to diversify. (And since removing gem gens is definitely on the table... there goes clamming for Oceania to actually do anything in the endgame as well).

Basically, most of the winners are already really strong nations, and the losers are generally weak nations.

If you want to rebalance the game to make human nations stronger, you almost need to rebalance magical paths to make them more equal, or rebalance races so human nations tend to get more and stronger access to the good paths than non-human nations. Taking hammers away won't help nearly as much as you think.