Conceptual Balance Mod 1.4

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Wrana

And I DO hate typos!
Not to repeat what was already mentioned and seems to be fixed by spellchecking I'll add some more things I think erroneous (mind, some of them were quite probably already in it by 1.3 - which still doesn't make them right!):
General:
Across-the-board cheap commanders and across-the-board Stealth 20 seem both unthematic and not good from the balance point of view. Commanders SHOULD cost more than common troopers and humble scouts SHOULDN'T be uncatcheable - especially ones which would stand out among population (Markata scouts with high Stealth are understandable, as well as those races with magical disguise ability. Human nations scouts can be better than Stealth 0, but not by much -and even this isn't necessary!). And some troops are too cheap, too - say, Raptors should be more costly then human light infantry, and Satir Infantry - more than Sneaks!
I think it would be more thematically appropriate for all Engineers to have Hammer as basic weapon, not dagger...
I think that javelins should get more shots in general - probably with Roman-based heavys getting new weapon called "heavy javelin" or somesuch. Light throwers SHOULD get some choice of not entering melee!
There seems to be just too damned much of multiheroes! And while some are good enough, Davata appearing at first year at Lanka castle may completely change course of a game. I think that even if we drop half of these, Worthy Heroes would remain more than worthy. And base encumbrance 1 for many heroes seems too good.
Base Resource cost for cavalry differs wildly. In many cases heavys have base 1, while in others lights have 3-5. I think it just needs to be decided upon once, then applied across the board.
gods:
Lady of Spring reduced Water skill, pathcost 80, added Forest Survival - seems quite unplayable in such form. Of course, Water+Nature = clam-maker, but I still don't think it so big a problem. And Survival is both quite useless for her and not particularaly thematic!
Monolith - Nature gems production doesn't seem thematic. I think some Luck-increasing would be better. Barring this, Astral gems...
Lawgiver - I think pathcost should be lower, as he is more of a Rainbow Pretender than SC-class. Then he could be more costly...
Nataraja - Astral 2 doesn't seem to be necessary - old way he could be taken magicless as expansion engine or get 1 path needed to bring magic diversity which wasn't necessarily Astral. And Astral bless isn't particularly handy for most nations...
Asynja - I think Glamour would be better for her than magic armor...
Lord of War - as I mentioned, something to improve his actual combat performance is needed. As he started out as mortal and his Dom score reflects it, it's possible to make mag. paths cheaper for him...
Deva - while thematically appropriate for Lanka, etc., doesn't allow bless strategy almost required for them. And none of India-based nations require SC Pretender (it may be taken for Bandar Log to open up Blood, but that's all)...
Mother of Monsters - seems to need either better natural protection or body slot - not creatures spawning... Or regeneration?
Virtue - as I already said, Astral seems to be somewhat redundant. Or it should just replace Air...
EA Marverny Horn Blower appears as a god in some other nations (at least, it did in 1.3.). There seems to be some "Horn Champion" Pretender for Marverny. It, however, lacks #pathcost and so gets it at 50 - surely inappropriate for mortal Pretender (it probably also should have higher stats to reflect his status as hero).
troops, etc.:
"Heavy Ashigaru Armor" sounds silly - these troops were lightly armored by definition. Nor should stealthy Bandits have heavy armor. I understand they aren't very good in melee - but they shouldn't be good! Maybe just making them somewhat cheaper is an answer...
EA Arco scout doesn't need higher morale - if he's fighting, it's already wrong!
EA Arco Chariot Commanders especially doesn't need to be cheap - and considering who they are based upon, it's far better to give them appropriate stats to make them thugs!
Oreiad probably should be somewhat tougher than mere humans - after all, they ARE spirits of the mountains. Then that high seduction would probably not be necessary.
Wind Riders probably shouldn't have lances - especially as in this era such are generally absent...
EA Ermor Equites shouldn't have Warhorse hoof - they aren't mounted on warhorses! And Ermor's strength is in its infantry in any case!
As I've already said, EA Ulm would be better with hatchets... something should probably also be done with their Iron& Steel Warriors...
Sauromatia Warrior Queen costs more than a Priestess. I think it should be vice versa.
Androphage Archers should cost even more - until known bug with poison-always-works arrows will be fixed - both in gold and resources.
EA Caelum Eagle King seems silly to me flying in plate armor - say, weightless scale would be more appropriate.
Bandar Archers shouldn't be Def 8 Mor 10 - they are elite warriors, trained from childhood! And they are not particularly good as archers anyway. If you think them too good, just make them more costly - it would be more appropriate.
Palankasha at 55 seem slightly too costly - and they have the same price in basegame anyway... While Asara seem to have no niche, even at 35...
Slave Troll - what's it??? And R'lyeh isn't the sea nation most needful of help coming on land!
ME Arcos - why new Mounted Commander? if it needs some to bring Elephantes to front, it can carry independents!
Hoplite Commander with Move 1 won't be taken by anyone, at whatever price...
Jotun Hurler has "none" as first weapon...
If Shuten-doji is made more of a thug, it should probably get less Leadership...
Oceania ME should be improved. There was a thread about this, which ended in almost nothing:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39640
LE Ulm Pikeneers don't need higher morale - they are chaff of the nation. At the same time, I think Pikemen should be redone in small teams - like was done with Skavenslaves in Skaven mod - this will both make them less vulnerable to trample and more able to bring dreaded pikehedge to bear.
Jomon Samurai Archers get Pre 10. Though I don't estimate actual samurai archery very high, I still think that from the balance point of view this is a main defence Jomon has from enemy shhoters - so Pre 11 is appropriate...
Bogarus I still think needs total revamping. Still, for now I think that Black Hoods shouldn't have combination of high base resources, full helm and dagger! And I can say you there weren't so armed guys among Russian nomad Foederati! I would offer reduce base resource cost, take cheaper helmet (in my mod it's "Leather Hood") and either some scimitar-type blade, morningstar (unfortunately, there aren't lighter horseman's flail nomads actually used often in the game right now) or just spear.
Malaya Druzhina shouldn't actually have lances, by the way - real lances were used in Russia very rarely (only by Novgorod boyars and Polish/German mercenaries). They can, however, use heavy melee weapons - even glaives were often used from horseback in later period.
I don't think blowpipes should get 2 attacks, even if I agree they suck...
For Horse Tribe cavalry wasteland survival isn't so appropriate - they are plains dwellers, after all...
Hoburg militia seems to lose its slings in this version while they were appropriate...
Bartholomeus th Patriarch got base Encumbrance 6. Shouldn't it be somewhat less?
Hanif - Member of the Third Tier has 13 hp. Isn't it too much?
Hildegard the Heroine is armed with spear and has leather armor. Shouldn't she has something better?
Daidalos the Maker of the Labirinth has reduced stats, but no old age. Shouldn't it be vice versa?
Anthromachus has oldage 10000 and immortality. Why???
King of Legends has just 8 ap. Should be more?
Master with the Iron Crutch should be somewhat tougher..
Abasi (Machaka Hero) as an assassin seems plainly silly. Stealthy thug I think is enough.
Ebuart the Guardian of the Tree gets castle defence. Why?
Dwarf Elder for EA Vanheim gets research bonus. I'd say Forge bonus would be better.
Lug the Long-Handed doesn't have stealth as designer decision (as said by KO). I don't think it good idea to give him one. He is already good, and if you want to improve him, I'd just increase his Forge bonus!

By the way, I agree that Demonwhip should require Blood level to forge!

Wow, that's a lot to address, I'll take a shot at it.

*Arcoss the board cheap commanders/scouts with stealth 20 isn't quite what it seems. If the national version of these were the only options, I'd agree it's a bit pointless. But the independent versions of these everyone uses instead (becuase they don't eat fort turns) were not boosted, providing at least a tiny advantage to using something else.

*Hammers for daggers sounds reasonable, not that there is any real effect.

*Raptors and satyrs are not more expensive than human light infantry base game, I'm not sure why CB should change that.

*Javelins seem pretty well balanced as is, I don't really want to mess with them.

*I agree a bit with multiheroes, but there is no real way to scale them down without removing them altogether. And personally I think the vast majority of people are against removing any heroes WH adds. It's also really hard to imagine the heroes being unbalancing, I recall someone did a mod with far more crazy heroes, to rather mediocre game effect.

*I'm actually really fond of the lady of springs, that's why in CB I tried to set her apart a bit from all the other titan options. I think she is reasonable if not outstanding choice for many nations (certainly more than the great majority of base game pretenders), though I would not be adverse to a good idea for improvement. I don't really see why forest survival is unthematic, she seems clearly a woodland type god.

*I think it's pretty debatable whether astral or nature gems are better on the monolith, I don't have strong opinion either way. Luck effects seem less thematic however, and would also be harder to implement.

*I didn't mess with the path cost on the lawgiver because it seems Illwinter must have felt it was an important thematic point, given similar pretenders path cost.

*I don't see any particular reason you object to Nataraja magic?
It should be considered that he is 0 points base game and almost all titans got 50 points cheaper or equivalent boosts.

*Similar to the Lawgiver, the lack of glamour seems purposeful by illwinter.

*Lower path cost on the lord of war would seem to imply a mage not a warrior.

*I don't see a particular suggestion on the Deva? In any case she is a very decent expander I don't see why she has to be great at a bless too.

*Boosts for mother of monsters is not a bad idea, but removing the monster spawn seems strange.

*Hornblower is a bag, and one that only appears in worthy heroes by itself, not CB.

*Heavy ashigaru armor only means it's slightly heavier than average ashigaru armor, which does not seem so unreasonable. Dominions has much heavier troops with stealth.

*Extra morale for a scout is admittedly a rather frivolously change, but I'm not sure why it would be cause for compliant. I just thought he should get something for having a special sprite.

*Giving chariot commander super-human stats seems far more unthematic than a somewhat cheaper price. Though boosting the stats a few points, in addition to the price cut is pretty reasonable idea.

*Odreiad seem quite usable and thematic as is, I can't think why I'd mess with them.

*I can't think of a good reason to take away wind riders lances, which they also have base game.

*Possibly modding Ulm axes to be shorter would be reasonable, but I'm not sure it would be particularly thematic or helpful.

*Why should a warrior priestess cost more than a queen? Also, I believe it is similar base game.

*I'm inclined to agree on the poison archers, but significant nerfs, especially nation specific ones, almost always result in backlash.

*Reduced stats seems much more appropriate for the lowest class bandar than increased gold cost.

*Boosting eagle kings is the last thing I want to do.

*I think the palenkasha is still usually the best Lanka sacred even now, you might be right about the Asara though.

*The slave troll was a ready made unit already in the game, that even mentioned Ry'leh. Given EA Ry'leh is widely regarded as one of the weaker sea nations, giving them the unit seems a nice addition.

*MA Arco has the mounted commander base game as well.

*You are probably right about the hoplite commander, however arco has too many military commander to properly differentiate.

*Hurler sounds like a bug alright.

*I don't see why I should reduce the Shuten-Dji's leadership, they are hardly uber units that replace all Shinuyamas other options.

*Inter-nation balance is not the main goal of CB, but it's possible I could find some extra boost for Oceania. It should be noted CB does boost the early summons they can use greatly though.

*I really don't like combining several human units into one, leads to all kinds of weirdness with things like soulslay.

*Given that even now Jomon is most likely to recruit very little but samauri archers I'm reluctant to boost them back up.

*Blowpipes do not get 2 attacks... though I must admit thats a nice idea.

*Bogarus cavalry: Not bad suggestions, though I'm a bit reluctant to so greatly revamp the way Illwinter set them out.

*Various heroes: Most of what you mention was put in place by Turin, I have not gone over it with a fine tooth comb. However, people are in general against reducing the boosts Turin gave to heroes, even if they are somewhat marginal thematicness wise.

*Ideally, I agree on demon whip. In practice, I'm afraid it would see little to no use that way. I did consider an only blood slave cost but that seems worse.

Cris:

1. Gladiator is fixed.

2. I'll have to look into that.

3. I believe that should be fixed.

4. Hopefully I spotted that, pretty minor either way though.

5. Confusion has been bumped up to a2.

6. I'd much rather find other ways to boost Agartha than improve a summon so far overshadowing their others.

7. Not really opposed to this but it would be a fair amount of work.

8. Improving the range sounds quite reasonable.


Anyway, I really do appreciate feedback, so I hope everyone keeps it coming.