My AI Design Q&A

[cybersol]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:

quote:

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Originally posted by Rollo:
well, in standard SE4 the AI builds only one resupply depot per system. So yes, Suppply Generation does have some sort of hardcode like system wide facilities.
A very good thing to avoid excess facilities to save slots and resources, IMO.

Rollo

I agree with you.
Honestly, I prefer that the AI retrofit the engines of a ship into a planet without Resupply Depot, than keep more than one Resupply Depot per system.

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I agree in general you want one resupply depot per system on your normal colony types. Sometimes you may want an additional one though, say on a construction yard type planet. The ability in proportions to call for the system ability with Supply Generation and for extras by Emergency Resupply is probably the most flexible solution if you are modding the data files.

[cybersol]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
First all, want to say that I'm not claim to have the absolute TRUTH, right? But will try to answer your questions:

Bug/Problem 3).
Think doesn't exist a way to avoid this problem.

Bug/Problem 6).
Never liked the Transport hulls. Think is a question of taste!
Usually they're more slow moving, and slow to build than the standard
ships.
Then, my AIs use standard hulls to work as transport/layers/sweepers.
etc (also, I can include a few weapons that can help sometimes to extend
their life).
Question: for what do you want a Transport working as layer for
the AI??? Many times (specially in late game when the large mines are
slow to build), I saw the layers with a cargo of 5 or 10 mines...

Bug/Problem 7).
Design ships with Component Repairs, that will work as support ships in
your fleets. They will repair your ships.
If you are really worried about the crippled ships, then increase the
Repair rate when you design your AI...

Bug/Problem 8)
- Research Solar Collectors, think is fairly easy for the unmoded game.
- Before research this tech, you could use LC colony ships with many
supply components.
- Don't pick Ancient Race for the AI. If the AI doesn't know far systems,
will not try to colonize it!
- Don't allow to the AI sign Partnerships! For the same reason of above!

Bug/Problem 9)
Think already was answered.
In the unmoded doesn't exist a way to have more than 1 resupply facility
per system... and if you want my opinion, I like this way.

Bug/Problem 3a)
Yeah the only solution I see is to use designs with rapidly changing tech so they will always be different. I have done this for now.
Bug/Problem 3b)
You could make sure the lowest tech Version of a ship and the highest tech Version of a ship class are with 50% cost of each other. But this TOO limiting in the mid-game IMHO. So I am just going to live with this one for now.

Bug/Problem 6)
I would like to use transport extra hull size in the early game. But I would like them to design the type of ship I can build as a human. For instance, a medium transport hull with 16 mine layer components and one cargo storage. If it can find enough mines it can mine a warp point almost to maximum in just 3 trips. When you still only have LC tech. They are only as fast as a battleship though.

Bug/Problem 7).
Yeah, I have repair based support ships. But those do not help colony ships, scouts, layers, etc.

Bug/Problem 8)
Thanks, really good suggestions here. I also had decided to move solar supply research forward and add significantly more supply to my larger colony ships. The supply helps a lot, I highly recommend it for bigger maps with fewer players. Your AI will easily out expand another AI that has its colony ships bogged down.

[cybersol]

Originally posted by JLS:
I believe multiple Type Ship and Base entries, if thought out and tested, is very effective in the process that Aaron Hall has made available to the AI designers

I agree, and as your example illustrates it is critical to control and properly formulate the initial exploration and not connected construction queues. In the unmodded game, though, I recommened a lot more colony ships because the humans will be expanding rapidly as well. Most AI modders put some attention into early construction already, though.

What I have not seen as much is using these same capabilities to better handle the various resource bonus games available. I like the idea of copying the entire heart of the build queue multiple times, doubling production for each copy. This better allows the AI to build up even force compositions in both the zero bonus and higher bonus states. I've seen this build up limited to attack ships in most TDM type AI's. IMHO, why not extend the idea and build up the whole construction queue.

[JLS]

I like the idea of copying the entire heart of the build queue multiple times, doubling production for each copy. This better allows the AI to build up even force compositions in both the zero bonus and higher bonus states. I've seen this build up limited to attack ships in most TDM type AI's. IMHO, why not extend the idea and build up the whole construction queue.

This would result in a more intimidating AI earlier, my concern would be maintenance for the None and Low Bonus Games, the AI may not have enough resources, this would need to be tested and calabrated, but the result may be even a less intimidating AI in the Mid to end game.

Cybersol, what are the thoughts of the new way the AI is hard coded to use Population Transports for the se4 minister change?

[cybersol]

Originally posted by JLS:
This would result in a more intimidating AI earlier, my concern would be maintenance for the None and Low Bonus Games, the AI may not have enough resources, this would need to be tested and calabrated, but the result may be even a less intimidating AI in the Mid to end game.

Cybersol, what are the thoughts of the new way the AI is hard coded to use Population Transports for the se4 minister change?

If you have good ratios like 1 support ship for every 4 attack ships, and maintain that through all the doublings of the queue, then I don't see how you sacrifice late game performance. In fact where most empires just stop building quickly at higher bonuses in the late game, this should keep the AI always churning out more ships. And like a human player, you then end up utilizing most or all of your shipyards right up to the point maintenance becomes a problem. As maintenance becomes a problem the Maximum Maintenance Percent of Revenue kicks in and slows the building down. And because the queues are repeated evenly, you end up with a nice consistent force composition no matter when maintenance becomes a problem.

I am not aware of minister change you are refering to. Please tell me more about it. I played before 1.84 but I never got into modding the AI or using the ministers before then. I tried to search for more information, but all I found was a vague note in history.txt for 1.82.

[JLS]

Originally posted by cybersol:

quote:

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Originally posted by JLS:
This would result in a more intimidating AI earlier, my concern would be maintenance for the None and Low Bonus Games, the AI may not have enough resources, this would need to be tested and calabrated, but the result may be even a less intimidating AI in the Mid to end game.

Cybersol, what are the thoughts of the new way the AI is hard coded to use Population Transports for the se4 minister change?

If you have good ratios like 1 support ship for every 4 attack ships, and maintain that through all the doublings of the queue, then I don't see how you sacrifice late game performance. In fact where most empires just stop building quickly at higher bonuses in the late game, this should keep the AI always churning out more ships. And like a human player, you then end up utilizing most or all of your shipyards right up to the point maintenance becomes a problem. As maintenance becomes a problem the Maximum Maintenance Percent of Revenue kicks in and slows the building down. And because the queues are repeated evenly, you end up with a nice consistent force composition no matter when maintenance becomes a problem.

I am not aware of minister change you are refering to. Please tell me more about it. I played before 1.84 but I never got into modding the AI or using the ministers before then. I tried to search for more information, but all I found was a vague note in history.txt for 1.82.

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Agreed, the Basic maintenance considerations, would probably not be a factor in Medium and especially High AI computer Bonus games as was stated in my Post, just its concern in None to Low bonus games.
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In regards to the loss of AI intimidation in mid to Late AI game play , overall Ship and Base Strength as it relates to score that is directly related to AI Diplomacy and the quality of the AI ship and base in itself.

If what has been posted is true, in regards to BUG 3, 3a and 3b.
And what you may be suggesting that; If the AI designer were to issue orders for the AI to build massive amounts of Ships earlier then in past designs:

Originally posted by cybersol:
What I have not seen as much is using these same capabilities to better handle the various resource bonus games available. I like the idea of copying the entire heart of the build queue multiple times, doubling production for each copy . This better allows the AI to build up even force compositions in both the zero bonus and higher bonus states. I've seen this build up limited to attack ships in most TDM type AI's. IMHO, why not extend the idea and build up the whole construction queue .

As opposed to the gradual build up in the designers Current non-Moded and original se4 designs; then wouldn’t this exasperate the 3rd Bug you mentioned?

Originally posted by cybersol: Problem/Bug 3b)
A similar bug where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again. This happens for a long time, sometimes they switch and try to retrofit at a different ship yard with the same result.

=================================================

Follow up reference:

3) Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a “newer” Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.

3)As I recall, the AI ship hangs around for a short time if cannot Retrofit, plus the AI gets a neat little message it can't read

3) I have seen them try for a while, over and over.

3) Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a “newer” Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.

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Nope, I don't know how to do it... Think Aaron "fixed" it in several patches, but the behavior is still there.

Well, for me it tries to retrofit for 10 or more turns until finally the tech changes so the new design is different and then the ships can retrofit properly. Since posting this problem, I now run into a similar one where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again for a long while.

In my case 10 to 50 turns depending. Longer for the 50% limit problem than for the same design problem.

Problem/Bug 3a)
Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a “newer” Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.

Problem/Bug 3b)
A similar bug where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again. This happens for a long time, sometimes they switch and try to retrofit at a different ship yard with the same result.

Bug/Problem 3).
Think doesn't exist a way to avoid this problem.

[ June 18, 2003, 18:40: Message edited by: JLS ]

[cybersol]

Originally posted by cybersol:
What I have not seen as much is using these same capabilities to better handle the various resource bonus games available. I like the idea of copying the entire heart of the build queue multiple times, doubling production for each copy. This better allows the AI to build up even force compositions in both the zero bonus and higher bonus states. I've seen this build up limited to attack ships in most TDM type AI's. IMHO, why not extend the idea and build up the whole construction queue.

Originally posted by JLS:
Agreed, the Basic maintenance considerations, would probably not be a factor in Medium and especially High AI computer Bonus games as was stated in my Post, just its concern in None to Low bonus games.

In regards to the loss of AI intimidation in mid to Late AI game play, overall Ship and Base Strength as it relates to score that is directly related to AI Diplomacy and the quality of the AI ship and base in itself.

And what you may be suggesting that; If the AI designer were to issue orders for the AI to build massive amounts of Ships earlier then in past designs: As opposed to the gradual build up in the designers Current non-Moded and original se4 designs; then wouldn’t this exasperate the 3rd Bug you mentioned?

Ah, I think I see why we seem to be miscommunicating now. Obviously I was not clear. First of all, I am mainly advocating an EVEN build up of forces. Consider the AI in the midgame for now. Assume its in a state like defend (short term). Assume there are just three ship designs for the whole empire: colonizer, attack, and layer for example. I am saying the defend (short term) queue should look something like this:

name ppi mhal
attack 120 2
colonizer 360 1
layer 720 1
attack 60 4
colonizer 180 2
layer 360 1
attack 30 8
colonizer 90 4
layer 180 2
attack 15 16
colonizer 45 8
layer 90 4

Thus it starts out building small numbers of everything in the "right" relative ratios. Then it goes back and build more of everything in the same ratios. The top repeat is designed to handle the no bonus early game case while the bottom repeat is designed to handle the high bonus late game case.

Most people do something like this for their most important ships, say attack ships, but not for the entire line of attack, support, infrastructure, and colonizer ships.

Now in the exploration and not connected queues at the begging you have the normal build one attack ship, build one colonizer, etc. But after the initial preparations, you again have escalating copies of the heart of the build queue.

Does that explain it better? It thus builds very deliberately at first, then an even small number of all your ships, then an even medium number of all your ships, etc. Thus as long as you have resources all the shipyards will be producing full bLast. Only when the maintenance limit approaches will the AI slow down its building process. In a no bonus game it will produce a smaller number of ships and stop in the second doubled copy, but in a high bonus game it might get to the fourth or fifth doubled copy.