Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV

[Atrocities]

You can never know what they can ban until they ban it.

Look at what prohobition did to the economy. Many believe that it lead to the colaps of the US economy back in the day as it put so many people out of work at one time and lead to economic stress that ultimately brought down the stock market and ignited the great depression.

[General Woundwort]

Permit me to toss in a quotation from Heinlein's Starship Troopers on the topic of corporal punishment...

"Mr. Dubois," a girl blurted out, "but why? Why didn't they spank little kids when they needed it and use a good dose of the strap on any older ones who deserved it -- the sort of lesson they wouldn't forget! I mean ones who did things really bad. Why not?"

"I don't know," he had answered grimly, "except that the time-tested method of instilling social virtue and respect for law in the minds of the young did not appeal to a pre-scientific pseudo-professional class who called themselves 'social workers' or sometimes 'child psychologists.' It was too simple for them, apparently, since anybody could do it, using only the patience and firmness needed in training a puppy. I have sometimes wondered if they cherished a vested interest in disorder -- but that is unlikely; adults almost always act from conscious 'highest motives' no matter what their behavior."

"But -- good heavens!" the girl answered. "I didn't like being spanked any more than any kid does, but when I needed it, my mama delivered. The only time I ever got a switching in school I got another one when I got home -- and that was years and years ago. I don't ever expect to be hauled up in front of a judge and sentenced to a flogging; you behave yourself and such things don't happen. I don't see anything wrong with our system; it's a lot better than not being able to walk outdoors for fear of your life -- why that's horrible!"

"I agree. Young lady, the tragic wrongness of what those well-meaning people did, contrasted with what they thought they were doing, goes very deep. They had no scientifc theory of morals. They did have a theory of morals and they tried to live by it (I should not have sneered at their motives), but their theory was wrong -- half of it fuzzy-headed wishful thinking, half of it rationalized charlatanry. The more earnest they were, the farther it led them astray."...

Mr. Dubois then turned to me. "I told you that 'juveline delinquent' is a contriction in terms. 'Delinquent' means 'failing in duty.' But duty is an adult virtue -- indeed a juvenile becomes an adult when, and only when, he acquires a knowledge of duty and embraces it as dearer than the self-love he was born with. There never was, there cannot be, a 'juvenile delinquent.' But for every juvenile criminal there are always one or more adult delinquents -- people of mature years who either do not know their duty, or who, knowing it, fail.

"And that was the soft spot which destroyed what was in many ways an admirable culture. The junior hoodlums who roamed their streets were symptoms of a greater sickness; their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights' ... and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure."

EDIT - the full quotation of the passage can be found Online here - http://www.magma.ca/~yeti/troopers.html

I don't agree with everything Heinlein says here, but his basic analysis of our situation is keen - especially when you consider he wrote it in the 1950's...

[ July 10, 2004, 12:09: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

[Gandalf Parker]

Good quote. Heinlein and StarShip Troopers.

Or as someone once said (I think it was me)..
"Sometimes scientific theory is created from direct observation of reality, and sometimes it is created in spite of it."

Or to paraphrase Spock. "It is not logical, but it is often true."

[Raging Deadstar]

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
Permit me to toss in a quotation from Heinlein's Starship Troopers on the topic of corporal punishment...

There's only one way this thread can go now that Starship Troopers has been mentioned!

[Randallw]

For me personally the best thing about the movie is that it convinced me to buy and read the book. The book, as I'm sure anyone who knows will agree, is totally different from the movie.

[oleg]

Originally posted by Raging Deadstar:
Sometimes i am incredibly thankful about living in england, although even our government is taking things a bit far in some measures it's now taking. The whole debate on a Ban on Smacking children and numerous other issues is getting quite worrying...

Smaking children ban is a quite reasonable legislation compared with "Animal Cruelty Law" that may impose a prison sentence for killing snails, slugs and insects in your garden...

[Wardad]

My Dad spanked me. Unfortunitly it was not balanced with an ability to care about anothers feelings or deal with his own. Unfortunitly I did not learn bargining skills from my parents.

Frankly, I'd rather be hit and grumbling, then have to put up with some of the new age mind bending pyscho bable bull####. You know, the BS that demands obediance (oops correctness)in thought, feelings, and actions.

Yea, I got spank, but lost respect for him for some good reasons. It got so trivial. One time, I pretended to enjoy the spanking and asked for more, more and more. My mom finally pulled him off of me before I broke (victory!). I had trouble sitting for 2 days. But... he had to see a shrink, and I got away with %^$# the next 2 years.

[ July 11, 2004, 01:40: Message edited by: Wardad ]