Did you noticed.......

[Wendigo]

This can't be serious, I'd like to see a list of those changes for the worst because certainly there are very few that qualify as such (and no, having your favority tactic/style of play whatever nerfed does not count, just adapt).

-The interface takes some time to get used to after having played with the previous one for so long, yet it's way way more powerful:

Now you do not need to hunt for that one researcher you have not moved to the new field, you just make a couple clicks instead of having to readjust every single mage. You can also send all your slaves & gems from clams & such to the lab with a single click...this is a huge MM improvement. Same with the no need to adjust your taxes every turn with bad patrol results.

You can reccord scripts...scripting the 20th support mage in a row was never so easy.

You can move a huge number of commanders together, and no longer are limited by the 18 names max when transferring gems outside of a lab.

-The music is gorgeous, and I love the new look of spell effects like astral shield or nether bolt.

-The number of units almost doubled, from 600+ to 1100+! and we are not talking about MOTS (more of the same, minor changes to previous units), the new units have great descriptions & backgrounds.

The main step back I can think of is the loss of the speed replay, but we might get this one patched in future.

As per the AI needing to build heavier troops, that one will be easy to patch.

So, what else? I hope balance is not being judged before the game has even been released, and besides IW has a good reccord of patching this one in Dom I.

[ November 01, 2003, 23:08: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
This can't be serious, I'd like to see a list of those changes for the worst because certainly there are very few that qualify as such (and no, having your favority tactic/style of play whatever nerfed does not count, just adapt).

-The interface takes some time to get used to after having played with the previous one for so long, yet it's way way more powerful:

Now you do not need to hunt for that one researcher you have not moved to the new field, you just make a couple clicks instead of having to readjust every single mage. You can also send all your slaves & gems from clams & such to the lab with a single click...this is a huge MM improvement. Same with the no need to adjust your taxes every turn with bad patrol results.

You can reccord scripts...scripting the 20th support mage in a row was never so easy.

You can move a huge number of commanders together, and no longer are limited by the 18 names max when transferring gems outside of a lab.

-The music is gorgeous, and I love the new look of spell effects like astral shield or nether bolt.

-The number of units almost doubled, from 600+ to 1100+! and we are not talking about MOTS (more of the same, minor changes to previous units), the new units have great descriptions & backgrounds.

The main step back I can think of is the loss of the speed replay, but we might get this one patched in future.

As per the AI needing to build heavier troops, that one will be easy to patch.

So, what else? I hope balance is not being judged before the game has even been released, and besides IW has a good reccord of patching this one in Dom I.

Well put.

I'd also add I like the new tactical orders better. And the nerfed storms. And the nerfed wards.

[Sammual]

I have only played the two demos (Pre-Ordered copy of Dom II) but I can't see anything Dom I has over II other than combat replay speed and I bet that will be patched.

Sammual

[Gandalf Parker]

OK I scrolled back and read just to make sure and nobody said that Dom II is worse. It definetly has some great advancements, and alot of love has obviously gone into the animated combat. When the full game reaches me I will be better able to pass judgement on the rest

[johan osterman]

Gandalf, I find you first post in this thread bordering on insulting, do you think illwinter is constituted of mindless automatons that implements any change that might be suggested. I have no idea where you are coming from, dom 2 was made the same way dom 1 was, content where added because it was fun, the content of the game have the same originators, the sources are much the same. Most of the input outside our circle of swedish friends where derived from cspigs. So if demands from loud lemmings have made their ways into dominions 2 and ruined the game, you are one of the lemmings.

Apoger, what are your gripes beyond the replay speed and the scarcity of the gold? Are you honestly suggesting that the looks is the only thing that is improved in the game? As far as I can tell the replay speed, the scarcity of gold and its consequences is the only issue you have raised. Sure there might be balance issues in some cases but this was the case at the release of dom 1 as well.

[Gandalf Parker]

Quite right, Im sorry I gave that impression. Im getting edgy at some of the "absolute facts" about what is "wrong" with the game that people seem to think must either get fixed, or IW is ignoring them.

So far the demo gives me the impression that the game has moved a far way toward leveling things for more balance, and a better gui, and a product much closer to market standards. As Ive said I am waiting for the full copy Ive ordered.

[apoger]

>Are you honestly suggesting that the looks is the only thing that is improved in the game?

The looks and a few nice interface tweaks, such as the research pool.

Yup, that's it.

Beyond that is the gameplay, and frankly I think Dom I played better and was better balanced.


>As far as I can tell the replay speed, the scarcity of gold and its consequences is the only issue you have raised. Sure there might be balance issues in some cases but this was the case at the release of dom 1 as well.

Balance issues is putting it mildly.

Dom I was not about graphics or interface, obviously. What made Dom I great was a combination of incredible complexity and the balance between those complexities. In a game as massive as Dom I there were only a handfull of balance issues.

It seems that IW was intent on making pretenders more potent in Dom II. I have no issue with that. However instead of making pretenders more potent... you guys diminished the potency of near everything else. Taking such a backwards approach has thrown a giant monkey wrench into the games balance. I know that you don't see it, and many players here who aren't familiar with Dom I don't understand, but IMHO it's pretty clear.

Making resources scarce has ripples of effect through the game. It detracts from light troops. It makes it hard to build forts. It makes mages hard to afford. Making it hard to do stuff, is not fun.

Meanwhile players will be inspired to build super combatant pretenders. In multiplay, the whole game is going to be a festival of giant pretenders going on rampages. Hey, I'm one of the biggest abUsers of this sort of strategy, and even I think it's going to get out of control. I want to choose between hard choices and paths. The current system is destined for 'Super combatant face off', and that's not fun.

Blood magic was diminished less than everything else even though it was a major problem in Dom I. What were you thinking? Limiting the super blood summons was good, but it's not limited enough. Still plenty of super combatant chassis to go around. Extra blood slaves can be used for "hordes from hell". HfH, by the way, is also going to be a major issue. Blood magic was too easy and too cheap, and your response was to make it easier and cheaper? I simply do not understand.

Death magic was not changed. Death summons cost the same, and death mages can still summon skels. Any reason that elemental magic got crushed, but death comes through with no change?

Wrathful skies. Did I not make it clear that this spell is an issue in Dom I? It's going to be much worse in Dom II. Having an enemy air mage cloud trapeze into my army and blow it away with wrathful skies... not fun.

Almost all evocations got nerfed, however I predict that the classic quickness-orb lightning, will be back in force.

The Seithkona nether darts problem will also make a return.

Meanwhile most other evocations have become stunningly inaccurate. It brings new meaning to the phrase "can't hit the broadside of a barn". Mages can't hit AN ARMY that is standing out in front of them with a fireball. OK can't is too strong... can't hit 4 of 5 times. Spells like flying shards and fire flies are jaw dropping as they fan out across the entire length of the battlefield! Funny, yes... but not fun.

High taxes destroying population in droves while low taxes have no effect. A design choice that I just cannot support. And not fun.

While the new interface is better than Dom I, it isn't very good. Certainly not up to standards set by other full priced games. If the game cost $30 then I wouldn't complain, but if you are charging big league prices then you get big league criticism. "It sucks less than Dom I" is not the same as "it's great!". The current Dom II interface is clunky and non-intuitive.

There's still no reason to take a fort other than wizards tower or fortified city.

Sorry that this post has become a bit of a rant. However the "feel" of Dom II is slow. The "low resouce model" exacerbates the problems with game imbalance since any issue means more since players have less.

Nobody was as big a Dominions fanboy as me, and I'm not upset because the system has changed. I am upset because I percieve that the system has changed for the worse.

It's not just me. I have a friend that cancelled his order after seeing the demo (and not becuase of input from me). My sizable gaming group who are all huge Dom I fans, are seriously questioning whether we should get involved with Dom II.

When push comes to shove, the gameplay of the demo is just not as much fun as the gameplay of Dom I, and I can see trends that will make it worse. Right now in the euphoria surrounding the better graphics and new release, players are being forgiving of the gameplay. When things calm down a bit, they will start to concentrate on game issues, and they will not be as happy as the Dom I community.

Again sorry for the rant, I should have written a more coherent essay. However since I spewed this, I might as well post it.

[ November 02, 2003, 04:19: Message edited by: apoger ]