MOD: Pangaea standard theme wth. usable Satyrs

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Zen:
Man has Daughter's of Avalon that are currently 80, Sacred and do so.

So if you bump them up to 90, they will be just a smidge higher, but probably fitting since they have 2 Holy.

The Daughters are sacred? I'd missed that. They're capitol restricted however, so in practice you won't build enough to really make use of it, especially since you have to forego recruiting the *** kicking Crones.

I think they're about right now. The javeliners are good enough, andn the Champions already have morale 9.

Probably in the right squad size. I was only testing it with squad sizes of 20 with 2 Revelers. This is in general enough for most things to not break. It just might be that the Satyrs take too much damage and die to be really helped by a standard at all.

I think the Cataphracts fit perfectly, every bit as much as the Hoplites.

Must just be a me thing I prefer to think of Centaurs not in the Shadowbane mentality

They're probably a little better now. I don't think they should be effective or likely to survive. I've had very great success with them as they were.

Oh yes, they are successful in what they do. It's not hard to fodder Or overwhelm the opponent. I was just thinking in the terms of changing them that would actually have an impact. Either way right now they are pretty much the same. Prot 3 vs Prot 1 isn't that big of a deal. And Str +3 (9) vs Str +1 (10) is only 2 points which I admit is an improvement, but I could see the fact that they lower defense and cause more morale checks to be more in line of what I think "Wild women" would do. As opposed to domestic violent women with frying pans

I agree that the War Minotaurs are still a bit suspect, mostly because they have Strategic move 1. I'd probably give them strategic move 2, much like Giants. They still wouldn't be that good, since Trample 3 doesn't do much damage.

Maybe the Minotaurs should be taken out of the Base Pangaean theme entirely, regulated to New Era then boosted to fit that themes needs.

The Daughters are sacred? I'd missed that. They're capitol restricted however, so in practice you won't build enough to really make use of it, especially since you have to forego recruiting the *** kicking Crones.

Oh, I totally agree. But for the early game, it's a little edge that is nice. When you can't afford a Crone every turn but you want to pump research they fit nicely. Also they are good for casting Haruspex.

I was just mentioning it because of the cost/effective researcher, comment. Dryads would be fine at 90 (as they are in CW)

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Zen:

quote:

---

I think the Cataphracts fit perfectly, every bit as much as the Hoplites.

Must just be a me thing I prefer to think of Centaurs not in the Shadowbane mentality

---

Centaurs are fairly civilized in Greek Mythology, so I don't see any problem. I'm not familiar with Shadowbane.

[Snip stuff about Maeneds]

No really, I've had great Success with Maeneds. In one multiplayer game my Maeneds tired out the slew an Earth 9 Cyclops. High morale, berserk, and low cost aren't to be underestimated, as all units have an equal chance of getting lucky rolls. Just don't let them get shot at!

Maybe the Minotaurs should be taken out of the Base Pangaean theme entirely, regulated to New Era then boosted to fit that themes needs.

I like the Minotaurs, even though they aren't Pangaea's best troop. Not all the units need to be equally balanced in a faction, so long as they have at least some use.

With Strategic move 2 they'd be fine, and I think it fits due to their strength and not particularily heavy equipment. Actually, I'd also reduce the Minotaur Commanders cost to 80, but that's a minor point.

With strategic move 1 I never recruit them.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Jasper:
No really, I've had great Success with Maeneds. In one multiplayer game my Maeneds tired out the slew an Earth 9 Cyclops. High morale, berserk, and low cost aren't to be underestimated, as all units have an equal chance of getting lucky rolls. Just don't let them get shot at!

Pans also have easy access to destruction, which is pretty good for helping your lightly armored troops out, and is on the way to mass protection, which you'll also want.

Yes, yes I know all about Destruction. I was actually the one that suggested it to Jasper way back before the patch when we were testing the use of Turmoil Pan. I still don't feel it's viable, but the Maeneds can and will overpower single targets and fatigue even the most annoying of SC's (though a Charcoal Shield takes care of them fairly well).

I like the Minotaurs, even though they aren't Pangaea's best troop. Not all the units need to be equally balanced in a faction, so long as they have at least some use.

With Strategic move 2 they'd be fine, and I think it fits due to their strength and not particularily heavy equipment. Actually, I'd also reduce the Minotaur Commanders cost to 80, but that's a minor point.

I don't think I'd use them even if they were 2 movement (though that would make it much more worthwhile). They only have 25 HP, take damage very quickly. Even using them against Cavalry (so they actually attack, instead of trample) I haven't had much luck. Lances tear them apart and their Axe doesn't repel much in the way of spears (which is a common horseman equipment).

Maybe I just want the best of both worlds. At the very least *some* Pangaean theme has to make them as fearsome as we all grew up reading

[Saber Cherry]

Minotaurs are really not scary... in the default game they have low HP (compared to what I'd expect from Greek mythology), super-low attack and defense, and only a battleaxe that never hits.

They probably - OK, certainly - would be scary if they got "Fear"=) Even a lesser fear, like fear -2, might be nice if it hit everyone they trampled.

But conceptually, I dislike giving minotaurs fear. Instead... giving them "gore" and additional attack and defense might be useful... I don't see any reason why they should fight below the level of militia.

Then there's the fact that they cost more than Jotuns, but are smaller and weaker. They should either cost less than Jotuns or go to size 4, which would make trample effective.

The data:

C:\Projects\Java\Dominions>java Unit pan.war.minotaur jo.axeman

Pan War Minotaur (Base creature: Pan War Minotaur)
Official Name: War Minotaur
Nation: Pan

HP: 25 Str: 16
Prot: 13 Att: 8
Mrl: 13 Def: 7
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 13

Trample, Berserker 4

Weapons: Battleaxe
Items: Bronze Cuirass, Helmet

Gold: 40 Res: 46

*********************************

JO Axeman (Base creature: JO Soldier)
Official Name: Jotun Axeman
Nation: JO

HP: 30 Str: 20
Prot: 18 Att: 10
Mrl: 12 Def: 9
Mrst: 12 Prec: 10
Enc: 6 AP: 12

Resistances:

Fire: 0 Cold: 100
Shock: 0 Poison: 0

Weapons: Jotun Axe
Items: Chain Mail Hauberk, Helmet, Round Shield

Gold: 30 Res: 32

*********************************

(output changed to reflect reality).

As you can see, the war minotaur is WAY more costly and WAY worse. Moving the minotaurs up to size 4, 32 HP, 11 attack and 9 defense, 19 strength... and maybe 45-50 gold... would make them worth building. Possibly. If they're still bad, increasing natural protection to 6 or giving a gore or hoof attack would resolve it.

-Cherry

[ February 11, 2004, 06:50: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]