patch 2.08 is out

[SurvivalistMerc]

NT Jedi,

Weapons and shields don't have to "fall off" to cease providing some of their benefits. Surely a shield is not benefitting you as a shield if you are lying on top of it. And if it's not benefitting you as a shield, perhaps its magical powers are also not operating.

Rather than requiring an entire battle round to re-equip items, why not just assume that this time is included and factored into the "duration" of the paralysis?

I have both seen and used shields. And there is not a single one that I think would be of much use to someone who has fallen down and can't move a muscle.

There is nothing in the paralyzation spell description to indicate that you "stiffen up" when paralyzed. In fact, such a "stiffened up" condition would not typically be called paralysis...at least not in English.

Why would you fall down? Because muscular activity...in the voluntary muscles...is required to keep standing.

Surely, given the nature of graphics in Dom 2, you will not conclude that the absence of graphics in which one is lying down is not dispositive on the issue. Graphics aren't exactly a forte of this game, and I don't even want to think about the time the poor devs would have to spend to create lying down graphics for all units. Surely you will concede that most non-magical units do sleep periodically, even though there are no lying down figurines on the overland map.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
{snip long post}

I think you've missed NT's point. The magical properties of the shield would still be operative regardless of whether the wearer cannot actually use the shield as a shield, so long as the shield is in contact with the wearer. So a commander that has literally fallen upon his shield would still get the magical benefits of the shield (fire auras, etc.)

You assert that unless the owner of the shield is awake and able to hold the shield properly that the shield's magics won't work. There is no basis for such an argument. The magics are "always-on". Whether permanently after forging, or turned on by some form of command, they'd remain "on" thereafter. Otherwise, by your logic, the wearer would have to keep concentrating on the shield's magic for it to work, which would make fighting or casting sort of impossible.

[Endoperez]

Petrification is an AoE paralyzation, isn't it? Statues stand even without muscular activity...

Anyway, this discussion has gotten little out of hand. Maybe you could move it away from the patch thread? It is interesting to follow, though, and atleast I would be interested to see how it ends (if it ends).

[licker]

Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
{snip long post}

I think you've missed NT's point. The magical properties of the shield would still be operative regardless of whether the wearer cannot actually use the shield as a shield, so long as the shield is in contact with the wearer. So a commander that has literally fallen upon his shield would still get the magical benefits of the shield (fire auras, etc.)

You assert that unless the owner of the shield is awake and able to hold the shield properly that the shield's magics won't work. There is no basis for such an argument. The magics are "always-on". Whether permanently after forging, or turned on by some form of command, they'd remain "on" thereafter. Otherwise, by your logic, the wearer would have to keep concentrating on the shield's magic for it to work, which would make fighting or casting sort of impossible.

---

Heh, wow, this entire debate has moved to the realm of pointlessness...

Both sides have valid rationalizations for their take on this situation, neither will win any converts from the other, so drop it, move back to game mechanics and effects on gameplay and drop all the useless rationalizations, they are as pointless as they are meaningless in the context of tactical combat as modeled in Dom2.

It may be entertaining to continue your debate, but don't delude yourselves that it should have any bearing on changes (or lack thereof) in the tac model.

[atul]

Originally posted by Arryn:
The magical properties of the shield would still be operative regardless of whether the wearer cannot actually use the shield as a shield, so long as the shield is in contact with the wearer.

Does this apply also to shields with description saying explicitly that those effects appear when someone strikes the shield, for example charcoal shield? A bit many variables you guys are having here if you all insist on putting all imaginable real-life (physics, physique, etc) and fantasy (magic) mechanics into play. Probably hard to agree on anything...

Oh, my mental image of paralyzation spell varies somewhere between old D&D 'hold' spell and epileptic seizure. So it would be possible to get all kinds of nice effects (like spell victims randomly hurting themselves ). Um, it's a game, so if something bugs, saying that really it is like this might not be the best option to sway anyone...

Have to second Endoperez, on both points. Namely putting conversation perhaps to another thread and that it'd be interesting to see how it ends.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
NT Jedi,

Weapons and shields don't have to "fall off" to cease providing some of their benefits. Surely a shield is not benefitting you as a shield if you are lying on top of it. And if it's not benefitting you as a shield, perhaps its magical powers are also not operating.

The way this game works... if the magic shield is equipped the unit gets the benefits from the shield. AS this game works paralyzed units DO NOT lose the powers of equipped items. That's the way this game works.

Rather than requiring an entire battle round to re-equip items, why not just assume that this time is included and factored into the "duration" of the paralysis?

Because a unit unequipped is not completely helpless or paralyzed... OBVIOUSLY a Titan is still very deadly even if he is unequipped.

I have both seen and used shields. And there is not a single one that I think would be of much use to someone who has fallen down and can't move a muscle.

The game has already included where paralyzed units are more vunerable so that's in the game. However these are magical shields... and paralyzed units do not lose their magical enchantments in this game when paralyzed... thus the items are still equipped.

There is nothing in the paralyzation spell description to indicate that you "stiffen up" when paralyzed. In fact, such a "stiffened up" condition would not typically be called paralysis...at least not in English.

Again as I said early there are many different types of paralyzation and there is nothing in the description of paralyzation which indicates units fall down either.

Why would you fall down? Because muscular activity...in the voluntary muscles...is required to keep standing.

AGAIN... NOT all units can fall down... fire elementals... sphinx... etc... THUS don't go believing it always happens. And as I said before there are DIFFERENT types of paralyzation. Again there have been many other games where paralyzation does NOT cause units to fall down.

Surely, given the nature of graphics in Dom 2, you will not conclude that the absence of graphics in which one is lying down is not dispositive on the issue. Surely you will concede that most non-magical units do sleep periodically, even though there are no lying down figurines on the overland map. [/QB]

Doesn't have to be graphics added into the battlefield.

[ February 18, 2004, 17:37: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[NTJedi]

SurvivalistMerc... you seem to be gravely mistaken in believing that paralyzation will automatically cause units to fall and become unconcious... that's incorrect.

Paralyzation has different types... take a look at description#2 from dictionary.com which lists one example: Paralyzed by Fear

Perhaps those spirits are causing this type of Paralyzation.

[ February 18, 2004, 17:52: Message edited by: NTJedi ]