Units seldom used.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Cheap priests are never, ever a bad thing. Especially if you're up against Ermor.

In theory yes. But you can recruit the same kind of priests from independent provinces and recruit more useful leaders in your castles, so having Black Priests as a national unit isn't really helpful.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Usually when people make comparisons between hvy and lite armored units, then say the lite units are worthless.. its because they are using the lite units exactly the same way they use the hvy units. In that case it only becomes a comparison of things like cost and armor rating. I think there are times when hvy units would be a waste. Patrols, flanking, covering many provinces on the map instead of having an army in every province, and fatigue?

Light units tend to be much more specialized than heavies. The extra cost of heavies also tends to come from resources rather than gold: As gold cost is commonly the limiting factor, and the determinant of upkeep costs, light units really have no advantage over heavies, upkeep-wise. As a result, in MOST cases, it tends to be better to go for heavier units. In specific, specialized cases, light units are a better choice, but most of the time, the heavies are the way to go.

This tends to match the pattern I've seen playing other games: Most of the time, heavier is better, unless you're skilled enough to understand exactly when, why, and how, to use light units.

[tinkthank]

Hey what a great thread. Wauthan, you are excellent; I wanted to ask very similar questions, but yours are more precise. I'd also like to add 2 or three to the list.

- Pertaining to the question on Humanbreds: Does anybody *ever* play "Blood of Humans" on Abysia, and if so -- why? With all other "special themes" of the other nations, there are either new and different neato troops or certain drawbacks and new advantages. But what is the deal with BoH? I find it the only theme to be somewhat flavorless, and I see no new goodies in it except more ... humanbreds and less ... demonbreds. But why would I want that?

- People have already pointed out that Humanbreds make ok bodyguards; I'd just like to say "yes", and name the reason: they dont radiate heat, which will otherwise kill your Druids and other recruited commanders, as well as your non-fire-proof pretender, should you have one.

- Salamanders can be ok for clearing out weako indies with lots and lots of militia or soulless or something else. Unfortunately, they still die nicely to a stray arrow, and their moral is nothing to shout about. And they are not particularly useful against human opponents. And their upkeep makes me cry. If only their upkeep were reduced, I would make them. If they were sacred, say, for +X (15?) gold, would that be a cool mod? Or otherwise keep as is and make them -X (-20?) gold?

- villians: if anyone made a mod which made villians interesting, I would be grateful. Conceivably they would have to be re-nerfed for Black Forest however?

- I would like to use spider riders, but never have, because I also cant see their raison d'etre.

- I also havent figured out how to use Einheres and Skinshifters well, but that's just me.

- Horsemen (Spring and Autumn), I started a thread on these guys a while back, but also didnt receive any responses hinting at their great potential. 8 Precision for 30 gold and otherwise light cav stats.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
- People have already pointed out that Humanbreds make ok bodyguards; I'd just like to say "yes", and name the reason: they dont radiate heat, which will otherwise kill your Druids and other recruited commanders, as well as your non-fire-proof pretender, should you have one.

Good point, but that's not the most important reason, as you could use cheaper independant infantry for these mages, or give them Rings of Fire. OTOH Humanbreds are the cheapest fire-resistant (since most of your mages will radiate heat) troops that won't hamper your Warlocks, Anathemants, etc. movement on the map.

- Salamanders [...] If they were sacred, say, for +X (15?) gold, would that be a cool mod?

I don't think that making them sacred for their current price would be unbalanced.

- villians: if anyone made a mod which made villians interesting, I would be grateful.

What's your problem with them? They look OK to me. Same stats and abilities as Woodmen archers IIRC (although I didn't check that in a while).

I also havent figured out how to use Einheres and Skinshifters well, but that's just me.

Einheres are just great. Just look at their stats when their berserk (+5) rages kicks in. One of the best ways I've found so far to punish an enemy who relies on bows and/or spears too much. I'm not as fond of Skinshifters, but they can be raised in droves because of their low resource cost. I think the Skinshifters of Midgard are a bit cheaper.

[Wauthan]

I've been busy trying out the advice and comments found in this thread.

I've changed my mind about C'Tis Elite Warriors and Falchioneers. These two units work great as a flanking force, as well as complementing each other well. Slave Warriors still seem to be redundant so far. I've decided to swap them for some kind of expensive dinosaur unit, if I ever find some sprites I can use. One of them Triceratops (sp?) might be a good fit for a C'Tis Version of an elephant unit?

Sacred Abyssian Salamanders worked out very well compared to decreasing their cost (AI produced too many) or upping the HP (became way too dangerous). This way they are frail, costly but potentially very dangerous units because of their area attack. Blessing also increases their morale keeping them in formation longer.

I tried out a number of ideas with the Villian unit, whose problem is not that it is a lacking archer but that its produced at a cost of permanent 5 unrest. Since they are also part of a the Ulm theme "Black Forest" I found that upping stats was a bad idea. I finally decided to give them a pillage bonus (5) which worked really well. A sneaky pillaging unit seems very thematic with it's description. It's not possible with the current modtools however (I gave a barbarian unit the Villians stats and tried it out that way) so it's a future mod.

Horsebrothers are interesting flanking units since they are so immensly speedy. I only used them as archers when they would simply have been killed if they entered melee. The new "hold and attack" order works in their favor. That said I very rarely use them since summoned flying units tend to work even better. A slight increase in precision might reflect their intended mastery of mounted warfare perhaps?

Einheres are the only heavy infantery I know were you actually want to meet archers. A whopping +5 in prot, str and att as well as never routing. They even use two weapons to maximise the damage output. These are the only units who I accompany with massed slingers since stray bullets only makes them go berserk, which renders them nigh immune to damage from any additional friendly fire.

Skinshifters are a flanking force, good for hunting down routing units, and are light on resources (they are bit of a Einhere lite really). Let's you build them everywhere and in great numbers if needs to be.

Spider Riders and Horsemen suffer from nearly the same problem. If there were some kind of Fire and Avoid order to make these units close in on melee units but keep out of actual melee range I would use them in hordes. That said there are some good advice on their use below.

[ March 11, 2004, 12:29: Message edited by: Wauthan ]

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Cheap priests are never, ever a bad thing. Especially if you're up against Ermor.

In theory yes. But you can recruit the same kind of priests from independent provinces and recruit more useful leaders in your castles, so having Black Priests as a national unit isn't really helpful.

---

I seem to remember that the Black Acolyte is more than just a Holy 2 priest who costs 80% of corresponding independent priest. Doesn't he get some sort of preaching bonus as well, or does my memory fail me here.

[Not an argument for using them especially against Ermor, but I played a single game as Iron Faith some time ago, and I seem to remember that I found excellent work for the Black Acolytes. It may have helped that I went with a Wizard Tower to allow me to build a lot of fortresses for better national recruitment]

[condors]

i know the black priest gets a bonus when preaching...maybe the black acolyte gets one as well?