Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Jondifool:
if I understands you correct
The Vampire Queens "power" lays in the easyness she is turned into a cockie cutter pretender!

Not merely a "cookie cutter pretender", but the ease with which she can be built into a number of SCs. Is this a BAD thing, though? After all, the VQ is useful really, for just that one thing. Her innate magics are not conducive towards any kind of a bless effect that is of much use: neither the death nor blood blessings are of much use in general, and focussing on either death or blood will more or less gut her ability as an SC. Trying to turn her into a truly potent SC is so expensive in points, that even playing strong dominion with scales is really not a sound plan with her. If you it half-assed, the VQ isn't really an impressive fighter at all.

So you can turn the VQ into one really useful thing only: A squasher of regular armies (and newbies). Of course, the ability to squash newbies is a meaningless trick: Newbies, are, by definition, bad at the game, and trying to balance the game for people who are BAD at it, rather than concentrating on what SKILLED play looks like, is a recipe for a boring game with no depth.

So in the end, at great cost in nation points, the VQ can be turned into a single, highly potent SC, that is not, by any means, even close to unstoppable, as a wide variety of easily available countermeasures exist. Is that really such a problem?

[Gandalf Parker]

I played a game with some new players and I used the Lord of the Hunt with Carrion Woods Pangaea. I used the LH to walk all over their territorys dropping maenads. It wrecked havok with their plans for quite awhile until they sunk enough into defense in every province to stop the maenad attacks. By then I had Black Heart and turned him into a godly assassin so they had to crank the defense to over 20 in every province to try and catch me sneaking. By then the carrion army ruled the world.

I dont want to see Lord of the Hunt be the next target.

[Norfleet]

Hey, that's pretty funny. I like that. Neat trick. Of course, the advantage the Lord of the Wild has is that he's Pangaea-only, so people can't try to port the strategy to other nations: As a result, you won't see a deluge of Lord of the Wilds from wannabes.

[rabelais]

Originally posted by Wikd Thots:
Dont back off now Rabi. Gandalf is just an old guy and wishes he can make us use our GOOD manners.

You go ahead and pick anything in the game you want and dont use wimpy words like balanse or opinion or please look at. TELL them that there game is all broke and defektiv messed up (not the word I wanted but I changed it 3 times till I got one I thot might stay). Those 2 guys in the garage after work should change what PLAYERS say is broke and stop doing just what they want to do

I missed my plane

Um, did you *read* my post? I haven't seen your name before.

My manners are fine, thank you.

I haven't demanded anything of anyone.

I've expressed an opinion, and then, having been chastised, I expressed an opinion about others opinion about the opinion... etc (pant, pant, pant... )

I have he greatest respect for Gandalf, the mods generally, and certainly the devs. If there's somewhere that isn't readily apparent in my scribbling, ... please show me where I misrepresented the care and affection I have for this forum.

If anyone is getting attacked here, (which I doubt) it's arguably me. Is it just the grotesque effrontery of having thought about the game, tried to express those thoughts clearly on a point of ongoing controversy, and expecting people to respond constructively in an open forum about said game?

To quote the Funniest White Man in America (Circa 1978)

Well Excuuuuuuuuuuuuse Me!


Rabe the Non-Airborne.

[ May 07, 2004, 02:51: Message edited by: rabelais ]

It appeared that Johan O thought the same thing that the 'unknown' presented Rabe, or did you casually ignore that. What may not be offensive or said in a way which is an affront to you, because you are the one making the claims, may sound very much like it to at least one other person. A not-uncommon communication problem, though whether it was intended or not is probably your main concern.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by calmon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Reverend Zombie:
There's a difference between being bored because everyone is using something they think is uber, and that thing actually being uber.

"Everyone" is using her because she is (far) the best SC in game in moment. Immortal, flying (fast) and stealthy.

She is good at the start of a game, because she can fight armies alone without fearing dead. She stops invading armies more or less easily in own dominion. If she fear an attack she just use 'hide' to prevent any (even teleport) battles. In lategame power and magic power - wish boost counts double and more for an immortal character (this can be a wished VQ too). Its better to invest in immortals then in others. Some more points are her ethereality, good resistants, regeneration, free vampires and her complete armable body. She is the chasis with most combinations of good attributes.

---

Yep, it's the immortality, imo. In a recent game (still in the early stages, actually), on turn 3 I lost my Pretender - one of the 2 I think is possibly superior to the VQ. Not the Allfather - the Carrion Dragon. A beefy, Carrion Woods Carrion Dragon, which I have ... some moderate experience with.

It wasn't a screwup; it wasn't stupidity, it wasn't even a catastrophic random event. Nope - I attacked a province with militia and light infantry, not even an obscence quantity thereof.

By fluke chance - a Water-2 mage was in command. Frozen Carrion Dragons aren't much fun.

With a VQ (who could, and probably would, also have been sent to conquer a militia / LI province), no big deal. She's back in the capitol next door.

My Carrion Dragon? Well, turn 3, Carrion Woods doesn't have many priests. So it took a while to call him back, during which time there's no asskicking and conquering going on, because all the carrion lords / ladies / centaurs / squirrels I can conjure are used for calling him back; ditto black dryads.

And when he comes back, 5 or 6 turns later, of course he's lost a level of ability in 5 different magic paths. 101 Damnations! If only I'd had a VQ instead, I wouldn't have wasted 5 magic paths, 5 turns of no conquest and bad recruiting.

The VQ allows quick early conquest, if set up right. It allows good mid-game conquest. And it kicks arse in the late game, with proper equipment. Equipment which can be replaced far more cheaply and quickly than doing 4 or 5 empowerments.

It's not Norfleet - he wins because he's a good player. But the VQ has _NO_ weaknesses, not even fire (which it should), and immortality that also heals wounds, which it shouldn't (except for the Phoenix probably, only at rebirth.)

Mind you - I still think the CD is better overall than the VQ, certainly when it gets pumped up via Carrion Woods vice base / NE. But you'll never see 16 Carrion Dragons in one game.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vynd:
why Rabe shouldn't say he thinks the VQ is "broken" and needs to be "fixed." That's hardly what I consider offensive language. I have trouble believing that the devs are as overly sensitive to criticism as you're portraying them to be.

His isnt so bad. Not as bad as some.

Its more the total impression Im feeling. But you are probably right. It shouldnt matter how things are worded. Im sure any programmer would be willing to go back and look at something no matter how its referred to them. I dont think I would and I havent put nearly as much work in the stuff I program. But Im probably just a cranky "old guy"

---

I've been a programmer for a really long time. And sorry, but imo being told something is "broken" is pretty polite, cordial, and reasonable. Being told that something is "****ed" isn't uncommon, in my experience, and even there, I personally didn't take offense. It was ****ed - but, for instance, in one instance the fault lay in Sun's libraries, but try convincing a user of that when their program crashes.

What phrasing do you think people should use? "Excuse me, I don't think the VQ is as wonderful and perfect and cuddly as it could be?" (Or, "The only way this program could be any more supercalifragilistic would be if it didn't crash and lose half an hour or an hours work when I mouse clicked a seeminly stuck menu 10 times in 5 seconds."?)

[ May 07, 2004, 05:58: Message edited by: Zen ]