Can we expect a better Holy/Unholy Magic in next patch?

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:

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Originally posted by Stormbinder:
P.S. BTW are there any perleminary talks about Dominion3? From what I've heard Dom2 is selling pretty well for indep game, correct? I've bought 4 copies myself btw, 1 for me and 3 as a presents.

Ooh dont do that. A major Version means a major code re-write. I think Id rather see Dom2 continue awhile before shutting off the patches for a Version change. Especially if it makes all the maps, mods, help files that the Users have done completely worthless (which usually happens with a Version change). No no, too soon.

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I understand your feelings Gandalf. But I don't think it has to be this way. Take EU1/2/HOI for example - it's another small studio game company (I think it only had one or two programmers, same as dom2). Patches (huge number of tweaks and enchantments) were being made 2-3 years after each game was released, many of them after the NEXT game in seria was released. That shows that starting to work on next game doesn't have to mean abandoning the previous game to the winds.

Face it - there is only so far that devs can push the existing engine. And they already indicated that many changes that players would love to see are too big for the patch (and it is understandable). I am not saying that they shold drop the patches and started to work on the dom3, there are still some things that could be easely impoved without changing large ammount of code. But the sooner they will start working on the dom3 the sooner we will get it. Since Dom3 will propbably take at least 1+ year to develop, personally I would prefer to have it sooner rather than later.


Also keep in mind that pathces are not making money for developers. We all want Illwinter to prosper, so they would continue to make such great and unique games. Perhaps with additional resourses they could hire few more people to make the future games even better - people like AI programmer, professional artist, etc., and also the current developers would be able to dedicate larger portion of their time to development of their new games. (from what I underatnd they made Dom1/2 in their fre time, correct?)
The effect could be both speeding up production of the game and its patches, and broadening appeal of the game to wider public without sacrifacing the depth and quality of gameplay(meaning again more resourses for future developments). Wouldn't it be great?

As for already existing mods and maps - the best of them are likely to be updated for Dom3 when/if it'll be released. Happened to a lot other MP games that I've observed.

I think you are getting ahead of yourself by a large margin. I'm sure some of the information from Dom2 can be ported over to Dom3. But the next level of game from Dom2 to Dom3 that would make it feel like a new game (instead of just using the existing style/engine) would take a major Version change. And unless you plan on supporting Illwinter with 4-5 gifts a week I don't see them having enough time to do something that major in a timeframe that doesn't feel very similiar to Stars! (I.E. We're doing it, we're doing it ... we're doing it... 5 years later ... We're doing it).

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Zen:
Stars!..5 years later ... We're doing it).

Heehee. I have a pre-purchased copy of "VGA Planets 4" which is years old now. And yes both Stars and VGAP3 came a grinding halt when they tackled new Versions.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Zen:
I think you are getting ahead of yourself by a large margin. I'm sure some of the information from Dom2 can be ported over to Dom3. But the next level of game from Dom2 to Dom3 that would make it feel like a new game (instead of just using the existing style/engine) would take a major Version change. And unless you plan on supporting Illwinter with 4-5 gifts a week I don't see them having enough time to do something that major in a timeframe that doesn't feel very similiar to Stars! (I.E. We're doing it, we're doing it ... we're doing it... 5 years later ... We're doing it).

I am just expressing my personal opinion, so I don't see how I could possibly be "getting ahead of myself my large margin". You can very well have a different one, I have no problems with that.


As for what will be or what will not be in the next Dom3 game, considering that based upon what was said here and elsewhere, the development of that game is not even close to starting yet, it's impossible for you or for anybody else to estimate how long it'll take Illwinter to do it. Unless of course you have precise private information about what will be in the Dominions3 game and would like to share it with us.


On the other hand as a software engineer with 15 years of experience including game development I can tell you that you can do a lot of things with existing or slightly modified "engine/playstyle" of Dom2. Imporving both tactical and strategic AI and UI would be 2 largest opportunities to enchance game experience without major overhaul of current game engine. But based upon previos patches as well as on the statements from devs themselves, it looks like nothing major is going to happen in these areas due to patches. (I am not criticizng them, I love previous patches). Since there are no indications that this thread will change in the future the only logical opportunity for serious improvements in these fields would be next Dom3 game.


And finally no matter how long it'll them to do it - 1 year, 2, 4 - the obvious truth is that the sooner the development of Dom3 will start the sooner it'll be finished. You can't argue with that.

[ May 23, 2004, 19:22: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
As for what will be or what will not be in the next Dom3 game, considering that based upon what was said here and elsewhere, the development of that game is not even close to starting yet, it's impossible for you or for anybody else to estimate how long it'll take Illwinter to do it. Unless of course you have precise private information about what will be in the Dominions3 game and would like to share it with us.

Maybe it's logic and business perspective that you are not seeming to grasp. Let alone the fact that development of another title or sequel would put stress on the support and development of any current titles. From my perspective this isn't going to happen any time soon until this title has run it's natural course for development.

On the other hand as a software engineer with 15 years of experience including game development I can tell you that you can do a lot of things with existing or slightly modified "engine/playstyle" of Dom2. Imporving both tactical and strategic AI and UI would be 2 largest opportunities to enchance game experience without major overhaul of current game engine. But based upon previos patches as well as on the statements from devs themselves, it looks like nothing major is going to happen in these areas due to patches. (I am not criticizng them, I love previous patches). Since there are no indications that this thread will change in the future the only logical opportunity for serious improvements in these fields would be next Dom3 game.

This is a classic argument. As if your reasoning is suddenly more valid because you say you have done something with software and or engineering or business or marketing or any number of any other things for x amount of years. Sufficed to say; the circumstances are more than likely not the same so the same conclusions cannot be made.

I do agree with you though, if IW ever decided to go the "UI and AI" rout it would be a new game simply because them programming things they would not play or do not like to program or don't feel absolutely nessecary or priority would mean they would be doing it for monetary reimbursement thus, needing to release a new title to compensate them for the atrocious amounts of hours they would be putting into something they don't like. The same as hiring graphic artists, putting new images in the game and upgrading the engine to handle it while leaving the game alone. All it would be for is profit and not having anything to do with the development of the strategy aspect (which I believe is IW's love of the genre). Note: Not that I wouldn't mind seeing Dom2 with good graphics and snazzy animations. Only that the only reason to do so would be to have a greater appeal to sell more copies without changing the basic functionality of the game itself.

And finally no matter how long it'll them to do it - 1 year, 2, 4 - the obvious truth is that the sooner the development of Dom3 will start the sooner it'll be finished. You can't argue with that.

Sure, but I don't think they are quite done with Dom2 yet. Otherwise they wouldn't be spitting out patches with the kinds of changes and user functionality that they have been.

To each their own. I don't know how many times I've seen a games released and a month later the "For XX 3" or "For XX 2" or "For XX 4" threads as if it totally escaped the developers thought process and they were giving a heads up. A good thing about Shrapnel Games is the Developers tend to ask before they do things. (See SEV)

Edit: Now all of these statements are only for Dom2. There are certainly quite a few titles that I have bought over the Last (around 5) years that were undeveloped, though the reasoning is often very valid it doesn't stop the game from being what it is. I feel certain games fall into different categories and Dom2 happens to be in the one where I don't feel my money has gone to furthering the greed of a company playing profit margins by cutting production and value. So the same credit I give the developer of the game I give to any future projects. The same as I would buy another Black Isle or Blizzard title without reservations.

[ May 24, 2004, 05:44: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Zen:

quote:

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Originally posted by Stormbinder:
[qb]As for what will be or what will not be in the next Dom3 game, considering that based upon what was said here and elsewhere, the development of that game is not even close to starting yet, it's impossible for you or for anybody else to estimate how long it'll take Illwinter to do it. Unless of course you have precise private information about what will be in the Dominions3 game and would like to share it with us.

Maybe it's logic and business perspective that you are not seeming to grasp. Let alone the fact that development of another title or sequel would put stress on the support and development of any current titles. From my perspective this isn't going to happen any time soon until this title has run it's natural course for development.

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Logic and business perspective, huh? FYI - there is no development at this moment in Illwinter, unless they already started some work on their next game, which you have denied. They are in "support mode" right now. Producing patches called "support" in computer game industry, not "development".


With the rest of your post I mostly agree, with few exceptions that I don't want to dive into. However your comments didn't actually contradict my post.

The one thing I would like to point out to you though, (as somebodoby who _is_ a software engineer with some game development background, not just somebody "who _says_ he is" as you kindly put it in you post ) since you may not be reilizing this fact (or maybe you do, I have no idea what you do in RL), is that programing game AI is _very_ unique and separate area from programming of the rest of the game. It is also by far the most difficult part to do it right. I am not saying that Illwinter did a bad job on it, in fact I am quite impressed with their efforts. But we all know (including Illwinter devs of course) that there are some opportunities for improvement in this field.

As for flashy graphic - I have the same attitude about it as you do, and I suspect most of the Dom2 fans share it at least to some degree, or they would not be fans of Dom2 in the first place.
I wouldn't mind to have it of course in Dom3, but it's not very important to me - however I think it would attract additional players and increase Illwinter's revenue, increasing their resourses for future developments.

On the other hand I reilize that Illwinter as a small and very talanted indep studio have limited resourses, and it's matter of priorities to where to apply it for the best overal effect. If it will come to the choice either sacriface flashy graphic or elements of deep gameplay, you know where I stand.

EDIT: For some reason (maybe I am wrong here) I have the feeling that you feel that you need to protect the Dom2 game from me. If it is so, you are wrong, since I am as big fan of Dom2 game as anybody here, including yourself. As I've said several times earlier, I think this game is absolutely brilliant, and I have nothing but deep respect for Dom2 team who have created this masterpiece. In my book it is the first game that have beaten Master of Magic, and that say it all.

[ May 24, 2004, 08:27: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[NTJedi]

Hopefully more headgear will be available in the next patch.

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Personally Dominions_3 would be great to see because there are excellent improvements which can be made. Such as:
1) Making the map editor more user friendly. The map editors from Heroes_3 and AOW:SM should be used as blueprints. Also perhaps a feature where map makers could easily adjust stats and names of independents.

2) Crafted items should be done like in AOW:SM where gamers can select what bonuses are added to magic items.

3) Finding magic items from events and independents should have qualities randomly generated. This is what made items so great in Diablo_2... one of its few good features.

4) Allowing the land to slowly change in appearance again from events and magic as was done with Dom_I.

5) Setting up the artificial intelligence to have multiple personalities. Multiple personalities would keep gamers guessing as to what the computer opponents will be doing next. And if one of the personalities is bugged/weak then it can be disabled by gamers in the options menu until the next patch is released.

6) Setting up the artificial intelligence to be edited and scripted by gamers so unique personalities can be created as well as improve others. This has worked wonderfully in Neverwinter Nights... even Bioware was in AWE by what some people were developing.

7) Larger maps and more units allowed in the combat screen.

[ May 24, 2004, 11:27: Message edited by: NTJedi ]