Can I get some cheese with that...

[Reverend Zombie]

Originally posted by Vynd:
Which is why I disagree with the way Reverened Zombie and others are blowing off people's arguments and opinions as "whining" unless it is backed up unreasonable amounts of "evidence."

By "unreasonable amounts of," you mean "any," correct?

And I would not say I am "blowing off" people's arguments as "whining", but "characterizing" them as "whining." There's a difference.

[ May 28, 2004, 16:45: Message edited by: Reverend Zombie ]

Originally posted by Vynd:
Illwinter is of course free to decide for themselves what is, or isn't, a good idea. I totally agree with Zen (and everyone else I would hope) there. Which is why I disagree with the way Reverened Zombie and others are blowing off people's arguments and opinions as "whining" unless it is backed up unreasonable amounts of "evidence." Because, as I have said, I don't see how it is possible to provide evidence of the sort that some people seem to be demanding. And demanding people do the impossible before voicing their thoughts amounts to telling them to shut up and go away. That's not right, and it's not going to work anyway, so why do it?

Besides, if the arguments that people are making are so baseless and wrong, then surely Illwinter will see that and not act upon them. I mean, that's more or less what you were saying, right Zen? So why try to surpress them? Better, I think, to let people argue about these issues, blow off steam, and maybe figure out some in-game solutions that way. Or maybe, just maybe, point out some things that Illwinter actually decides could use improvement.

Maybe you have a different understanding of what this board is for. In my mind it's not a place to "blow off steam", or "demand IW change something". Just because you have the rare instance of actually having developers who care enough to take consideration to suggestions on this board does not mean it's the breeding ground for "What I feel is right" Posts.

And under no circumstance is this a field to argue and go to the lowest depths of personal attacks for people defending pro or con any debate/playstyle/feature/bug etc.

However, that is exactly what people recently have done. For whatever reasoning, be it human nature or merely the trend of games/gamers in general. Suddenly people feel it's their god given right to have developers change something based on their input (which is by and large inadequate) and if others disagree with that input or the thoughts around it, suddenly they are attacked for 'not knowing' what they intimately know.

Counter to public opinion this is not a Rant forum about Dom2. This is a forum that serves as both feedback (in an appropriate manner) and aid for new players as well as old.

So my suggestion is, if you happen to feel something needs to be changed. Bring your game face and some effort and thought into it. If you are just bandwagoning or have the inescapable need to jump onto a side for whatever reasoning. Don't be suprised when the status quo is asking for reasonable proof or evidence of something suddenly needing changing.

A good example of this is: Stormbinder's Mirror Image issue. He brought a bit of information that he felt was wrong, enough to spark interest for others to see if it was or was not working as he said it. It doesn't have to be huge mathmatical analysis but it has to be reasoned and tested against more than one or even a few circumstance/stimulus.

Take it what it's worth. But if you think this is a board for 'blowing off steam' you'll find your Posts and threads with that intention will not be tolerated.

[Reverend Zombie]

Originally posted by Zen:
Maybe you have a different understanding of what this board is for. In my mind it's not a place to "blow off steam", or "demand IW change something".

Counter to public opinion this is not a Rant forum about Dom2. This is a forum that serves as both feedback (in an appropriate manner) and aid for new players as well as old.

There's the general Shrapnel forum faq, but I have not found a "rules of THIS forum" faq like I have seen on other sites.

Does it exist?

Not as far as I know. It has never needed them to my understanding. In the past most posters at Shrapnel's Boards have understood that general politeness and rules that are standard on other Boards are applicable here.

Also I feel the caliber of people who play Dom2, in general, do not fall prey to the very base of things that most if not all forums prohibit.

Perhaps when Gandalf upgrades the Forum Software it will have an easy to read FAQ about what is and is not appropriate here as well as allowing you to choose your sort method.

Edit: Just for clarification. This is not a Rant forum in the fact that it's for people to come and ***** and moan about things in an inappropriate manner. Obviously everyone has the right to be angry at any number of things, but within reason. Such as if you are angry that Utgard was broken in a new patch and there was no support or answer for that particular instance, you are totally justified. However, if you got beat by someone using a Archmage with Staff of Elemental Mastery and posted that it was "total bull**** and the Archmage is unbalanced" and then flaming the player of the Archmage, would be innappropriate.

[ May 28, 2004, 19:07: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Zen:
However, if you got beat by someone using a Archmage with Staff of Elemental Mastery and posted that it was "total bull**** and the Archmage is unbalanced" and then flaming the player of the Archmage, would be innappropriate.

Inappropriate, yes.....but I'd pay to see that. That's just too funny to be true.

[Vynd]

I'd like to see the Archmage kick some butt too.

I am in total agreement with Zen that no one should be coming on here and demanding that Illwinter do anything. I don't think I said that in my Posts.

I also am opposed to ranting and the use of personal attacks. That sort of thing isn't what I had in mind when I said blowing off steam, but I can see how it could be interepreted as such. Sorry about that.

I'm basically just in favor of as free a flow of ideas as possible, so as to make it easier to identify where the problems are and aren't. I didn't think that Reverened Zombie's categorizing some people's opinons as whining (not a particularly civil word, in my opinion) encouraged this sort of exchange, so I spoke up about it. But I absolutely agree that this exchange of ideas needs to be friendly and respectful. If I gave any other impression be assured it was not my intent.

[Scott Hebert]

Well, for me, things CAN be tested. It all depends on how much work you're willing to do for it.

Take, for example, the Vampire Queen. You think she should cost more? Go right ahead. You don't have to spend all the points you get to make your Pretender. The formulae used to figure out costs for things like Paths are well-established, and so you can tweak the numbers to what you think she SHOULD be. Then you play her.

Come to think of it, aren't Pretenders able to be modded/created now? You could simply create what you think an appropriate VQ would be, and test to see if she is, IYO, more balanced.

Another thing. Clams. What's the appropriate cost for them? This is, actually, something you can verify in-game. If you think that they should cost 10W and 10S, for example, simply remember that you need 10 Astral gems in your lab for each Clam you own. Alternatively, you could take the 10 Astral cost, convert it into ANYTHING else (giving 5 gems), convert those BACK to Pearls (giving 2 Pearls and 1 Gem), and convert those Pearls back into a gem (giving 2 Gems), and converting back to a single Pearl. Poof, you just had 9 Pearls disappear. Also, make sure you only Forge with capable mages.

Is it work? Yes. Before you reflexively ask, "You expect me to do THIS MUCH just to prove something that already exists?", I'll answer you. Yes. I do. Supposition and 'because everyone does it' is not evidence. It won't get anything changed. The more you can do to identify the problem AND work on a viable solution AND show that that solution is better for the game, the better your chances are for getting the change made.

Mostly, I see people working on only the first problem. Gandalf constantly says it; give us solutions, not problems. And don't just give solutions, give us evidence that show the solutions do what they're supposed to. Only then is IW likely to implement the change.

Scott