your favourite 2.12 vq nation

[Zapmeister]

I only ever take the VQ with BF Ulm because I think she's thematic for that race/theme.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I only ever take the VQ with BF Ulm because I think she's thematic for that race/theme.

I agree with Zapmestier. VQ is still overpowered, if you know well how to design and play her, even after the Last patch - although it is now significantly better than before, thanks to devs. But it is indeed quite thematic for BF, and BF could use some boost. For all other themes I would frown on VQs in the games that I orginize/play.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I only ever take the VQ with BF Ulm because I think she's thematic for that race/theme.

I agree with Zapmestier. VQ is still overpowered, if you know well how to design and play her, even after the Last patch - although it is now significantly better than before, thanks to devs. But it is indeed quite thematic for BF, and BF could use some boost. For all other themes I would frown on VQs in the games that I orginize/play.

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hm yeah for pan cw and the like the vq is still too good . almost 50% have voted that they build their nation around the vq and not the other way round .
perhaps that is really a sign that vq is still too good .
i like the vq a lot ( i started playing in 2.12 so i never saw a pre 2.12 vq ) but i have to admit that she really is a small bit too good still .

i have thought of how to make a lich ( for ryleh e.g. ) a semivq at least midgame but he would need so pricy equipment that it is not worth it .
with no regeneration + a dagger as starting weapon i think it is impossible to use him as an indyexpansion earlygame sc .
no other sc can be used as riskless for early game expansion because all others have either always the small risk to gain a really nasty battle affliction or they have recuperation / immortality but are otherwise too weak to be used as sc .

perhaps i should start a new poll asking about the vq , nerfing it down a little bit more by the following :
forbidding her for most nations . only allow her for thematic natioins :
pan cw , ermor , bf ulm , abysia .
at least disallow her for pythium , caelum , arco .
increase her path costs to 60 or 70 .

this way the basic high dominion , 2-3 E , optional 2-3 A , 2+D , 1+B , 2+ W vq will be really hard to pay for e.g. pythium/caelum and so still be worth it for ermor but not be imbalanced (+ very thematic ) .

but at the moment she still is perhaps a slightly too good pretender for the races which can afford lousy scales .


do you think i should try to make a new thread / poll which perhaps results in small changes which balance the vq even more ?

[nakomus]

First of all, let me say, I really don’t want to start a flame war about game balance here. Just expand on my own poll response, mainly. I’m not exactly an expert at MP. But my vote would be for the VQ to be left alone for now.

I’m one of the people who voted that they built there strategy around the VQ (with Abysia). By that I meant that the VQ was an integral part of the strategy, not that she was the whole point of the strategy. The Last time I played with a VQ and Abysia I used her for early expansion and extra defense in my dominion so I could focus on getting my blood economy going. I didn’t choose Abysia because they have extra points to dump into a VQ; I choose the VQ because I wanted to focus on Abysia’s magic and she let me do that.

I said that I based on strategy around the VQ because the strategy as a whole would not have worked well without her or something similar.

It seems to me that ones strategy should be based around your pretender god; they are afterall what the game is about.

With the VQ forbidden to Ermor now, Pan CW is probably in first place for disposable points to sink into a VQ. From reading these Boards, I get the impression that CW is a weak theme. Even with a tricked out VQ, is CW really overpowered?

forbidding her for most nations . only allow her for thematic natioins :
pan cw , ermor , bf ulm , abysia .

I don’t really agree that the VQ is thematic for Ermor and Pan CW. Although she is undead, she feeds on the blood of the living. A vampire in a killer dominion will starve (I know I’m not the first to point this out, but I forget who brought it up first).

If you do want to poll about balance, I think you should put it in the context of specific nations:

Is Pan CW with a VQ unbalanced?
Is Abysia with a VQ unbalanced?
Would Ermor with the patched VQ be unbalanced? (although its removal was I think partially thematic)

Even if the VQ is a little better than her competitors, I’d rather see the effort spent on improving the worst pretenders rather than dragging down the best.

[Vynd]

I was in favor of weakening the VQ before, but I think it is too soon to say if she needs to be weakened again. It does seem to me that she remains the most powerful combat Pretender you can get starting out the game. In the late game other Pretenders and summons can also be very strong with the right equipment, but the VQ comes with so many nice abilities built in that nothing really compares early on. But something has to be the best fighting Pretender early in the game. It might as well be her.

The problem before, at least as Illwinter seems to have seen it, was that the VQ was both an excellent fighter and Rainbow. The only reason you wouldn't take her is if you wanted a bless effect or wanted to dump most of your points into scales/dominion/forts.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Vynd:
It does seem to me that she remains the most powerful combat Pretender you can get starting out the game. In the late game other Pretenders and summons can also be very strong with the right equipment, but the VQ comes with so many nice abilities built in that nothing really compares early on. But something has to be the best fighting Pretender early in the game. It might as well be her.

While the VQ is certainly very adept at squashing indies, the King of All Fighters title really has always belonged to the Allfather, who is every bit as potent, and has many of the same attributes working for him, and has always been more rainbowy, with cheaper paths by far. His only real shortcoming is his nationally-restricted status.

On the other hand, with the VQ being nerfed largely to oblivion, the crown has more or less passed to the GK, being that the VQ is no longer affordable in the same role as before: The number of nations that you can squeeze a VQ out of is now far more restricted, and with the exception of those select nations, I, personally, have shifted to the GK for the rest.

[Pickles]

Quoting Boron:

"forbidding her for most nations . only allow her for thematic natioins :

pan cw , ermor ,"

These nations kill people & she eats people so I do not think they are thematic

doh! as others point out later in the thread

"bf ulm , abysia ."

ATM you have to allow her for all Ulm if you allow BF - not that she is a good choice for the others

As you say she is powerful for the nations that can afford to trash their scales plus that benefit from the blood/death she starts with She seems to be almost a theme on her own as you the build around her thing shows.

I am not sure she is ovepowered but she is the best choice by miles for this type of scale trashing good early, good middle, good late SC so she gets boring. I think maybe some other chasis could be boosted to close to her level (& cost) to create options for this role.

Pickles

edited typoes

[ August 02, 2004, 23:32: Message edited by: Pickles ]