A long road

[Gloo]

Here I don't understand: stabilization is the very figures that reflects fire on the move...

I think there's been misunderstanding here (two french trying to debate in English... that could make a fine theme for a Woody Allen movie! ). First, the values you present are used by M1A2 SEP and Leclerc 2 while I was focusing on M1 and Leclerc 1 (even though that's a detail). Second, are you really sure 1 point, up or down, in Stab isn't that important? To me the main thing affecting the fire on-the-move capabilities is the number of Mvmt. points. Or, as i said, it should be so, imho. Since a unit without such capabilities shouldn't have any fire left after a single move (or, at most, one shot; to simulate the necessity to go to a full stop in order to acquire its target and shoot at it accurately). That could be dependent based on terrain, of course (some can shoot while moving on roads or flat and open terrain to a top speed yet to determine; some could have more than one shot but assorted of a penalty to hit, and so on). But, the demonstration provided by Cusbut render all this great theories obsolete Anyway, Stab points (and other variables, like Exp.) act as a modifier to calculate how much shots are left after moving (since that was how it worked in SP2 with points above or below 4) but I really don't know how it is handled now by WinMBT. Did you make any test with static/moving units? I didn't, so I won't be so sure, but I guess that could make difference between a hit and a miss. Since the Camo crew don't provide formulas, it's near impossible to say for certain. Anyway, Fire control, Rate of fire, and movement points are values probably mixed together (to a point) in order to render how well a MBT is able to hit a target, while remaining static or moving. These are altered by the crew experience and over factors (vision, morale, and so on). All these things are parts of a big picture, far to complex to understand since we don't have the exact algorithms used in the game code. I mainly wanted to focus on how movement rate interacts with firing/reloading capabilities. My main concern was how this is implemented and how to create a "template unit", for a given period of time, in order to use it to calculate how the others could be rated. Right now, the only thing I can rely on is that there's a table giving the ratio between terrain and movement points, and the fact that 1mvmt point equals 3km/h. I wanted to learn more but, since Cusbut showed how wrong I was to believe there's important characteristics that could make huge differences on the battlefield between MBTs, there's no point in wasting time on that subject! Let's play the game the way it's been made, as we always did.

The little é... says that I'm precisely as french as you...As could my bad english

I noticed this detail (the accentuation, not your bad English (which is, now that you mention it, VERY bad, to be honest )). But I know of many french people who only swear by the "American way of life". Some even spend their holidays on horses back, dressed as cow-boys, pretending to live in the wild west... . Not quite sure such french citizens aren't a little bit biased towards American point of view

I was simply saying that 'Tout ça se sont des suppositions'

I got that point but, as I said previously, we were talking about M1 Abrams and Leclerc 1, which were produced more than 15 years ago! That's not prospective, that's real facts and vehicles that have been battle tested for quite a while!

You can easily check: Leclerc is 2,5 m height, the M2A1 SEP is 2,8 (...) at long range it give the leclerc in SPMBT a 'quasi' total superiority...

Did you conduct tests on this? I did a quick one. It seems to give the Leclerc a slight advantage in detection terms when remaining static but I didn't find much of an advantage relative to hitting rates. Are you sure that this "little" point added to the SEP in Stab, plus the 5 points in FC, don't compensate for these 2 little points in size... ? Not even to mention the Mvmt. advantage, since Mr. Sucbut demonstrated this one's only a myth

Ironicaly this is because of this particular defeat (...) the brave English (that's not ironical) where back home...

I hope there's no Tommies around... I won't comment further on that, since I don't want to initiate politics arguments here. I'd just like to say that I'm ashamed for those, still pretending the french army acted cowardly in 1940, and that I'm thankful to the Brits they had the will and courage to make an inexpugnable fortress of their islands during that very time frame... .

Didn't you mention M1 with 105mm gun?

Absolutely correct. And I maintain the M1 Abrams has a 105mm gun. Check it out by yourself.

and again n°316 simply doesn't exist...

Seems you have a problem using MobHack, or perhaps are you referring to a different version of the game? Unit 316: OBat12 USA, has the M1A2 SEP Abrams associated to this number. I'm positive about that. Then again, check it out.

After that let me had something: look at the anti-HEAT armor. Can you find a better one that the Leclerc?

Did the M1 Abrams had a better armor than the Leclerc first series? Good question and easy to verify ) Now, if you test a fire fight between Leclerc 1 and M1A1HA (or other MBTs (haven't tested with Challys since they were using special HEAT ammunitions)) you'll find this high anti HEAT protection is not so useful! A sabot impact from these guns to the front hull (even sometimes in the FT) and the Leclerc's out for good (one hit one kill, most of the time). You still have to maneuver to find hull down positions (dream it would be as easy as it is with Combat mission ).

The great problem here is the rof: Leclerc one is very hight but doesn't serve 'in game' because the final rof is determinated only by experience... A problem that simply isn't easily solved.

Yes, as far as I know, shots number is relying on Exp. (though it also depends on suppression level). But, as Cusbut said, since even a Chally 2 can fire accurately and reload while moving at 40km/h off roads, this value isn't a real issue, isn't it? Maybe this only remains for opfire calculation purpose? Does values above 5 give an even better penalty reduction? I really can't say.

Also, you can see with a very quick comparison that the French oob is one of the most detailed in the game far beyond Germany for instance...

The detail is pushed as far as giving the french scen designers the theoretical strategic possibility to incorporate pack mules, for towing tasks, up to 2020! But I'm still wondering why this glorious military asset isn't available between 1946 and 1948? Maybe this sophisticated unit was in a development period during this very time frame?

Last point: I'm doing a campain about the French Foreign Legion Paratroops... can I hope you will be a play tester?

I've never done such things (I only play tested some of my own scens) but I'll be happy to take part! Is this hypothetical or based on real operations like Kolwesi and such?