Vampires?

[Cainehill]

WraithLord said:
I like them better with ethereality, and I think VQ could have kept hers as well together with having her cost raised some more.

With the Dom2 patches and CB mod, the VQ didn't seem particularly overpowered or underpriced anymore - one very rarely saw her used in CB games, and yet she was nerfed again, while All Father went back to uber-status.

[Nerfix]

Who exactly uses Allfather? He's not a W/F pretender now is he?

[FrankTrollman]

VQs were never that big of a deal!

There is a small, but extremely vocal group of Dominons 2 players who use VQs virtually exclusively and compare sizes a lot and complain about how broken they are. It flies and it is stealthy, and for a very specific strategy it is the only and therefore "best" option.

So the designers get bombarded with tirades about how brokenly powerful the Vampire Queen is, and they raised her price to 150. But the people using that strategy still couldn't use anything else so they still complained. And complained and complained and... you get the idea.

Vampire Queens aren't that good. They've never been that good. They weren't all that and a bag of chips when they were Ethereal and cost 125 points. They weren't all that when they were Ethereal and cost 150 points. And now they aren't even Ethereal and they cost 175! Vampire Queens are total crap and aren't good for anything.

Even in Dominions 2 you could get better scales, better dominion, and better magic with a Prince of Death. You could get better Ethereality and Magic with a Ghost King. The Vampire Queen's only meaningful advantage is that she's thematically awesome - especially for Black Forest Ulm.

But no. People complain and complain and complain... and now Black Forest can't have nice things. I hope you're happy.

-Frank

[Nerfix]

Well, the problem was mostly that she was ethereal, flying, lifedraining, *immortal* and could pick magics perfectly suited for buffs. And with Dominions 2 research times and spell placements it meant that in few turns she could research a vast array of buffs for herself and we all known how few things can stand up against an ethereal ironskinned quickened mirror imaged fire shielded lucky life drainer.

The VQ version 1 w/o Ethereality & Dom 3 research would be good IMHO.

[FrankTrollman]

Oh honestly who gives a crap? By the time you're slapping all that magic on somebody you might as well add "body ethereal" and start with any creature at all.

There is exactly one spell on that list that uses any of the VQ's actual abilities, and it's "Life Drain". She's a Blood God and your dream list uses no blood at all! The Vampire Queen is used for these comparisons because thematically she is awesome, not because of any intrinsic capabilities of the chasis. After all, you just described a character that would go down to a Bane Lord with a Dusk Dagger. I'm severely unimpressed.

The legend of how awesome Vampire Queens are was started by a man who played Ashen Fields Ermor and cheated for hundreds of gems starting from turn 1! Sure, he was unstoppable, but it wasn't because of the Vampire Queen.

The Ancient Olhm can do everything the VQ is claimed to do except that he starts with magic that is actually useful (Water and Earth) and a decent pile of hit points. Vampire Queens have an awesome mystique about them, but they aren't even particularly good unless you happen to be a blood power.

Their one unique ability is that they are a potential Blood God who has hands (for hammers) and is available to people who aren't Pangaea. That's right, the VQ is and always has been a consolation prize for not having the Lord of the Wild. Now that the Deva is in play there would be even less nations that would care about the Vampire Queen even if she didn't get nerfed to the point where she totally sucks. And not in the good way that VQs are famous for.

-Frank

[Nerfix]

Actually, no, you couldn't. It took a mix of paths that would allow buffs that could be afforded by rare few pretenders, namely VQ, GK, rainbows and nagas.

VQ was naturaly ethereal and that alone is a huge bonus against troops without magic weapons. Alteration 2 (60 research points in Dominions 2) would allow her to cast Stoneskin (armor), Mirror Image (drastic decrease on chance of getting hit) and Quickness (def/attack bonuses and two actions per turn). If you took a smitter of Fire with her and researched Enchament 1 you could cast Fireshield and effectively do damage while defending. And this isn't particulary expensive in design points or magetime.

The Ancient Olm cannot do all the VQ could potentially do because he has harder time getting the multidute of magic paths. You'll be paying through your nose to get a 1E 1W (and Quickness was nerfed) 1/2 A and the Olm is not Ethereal to start with like VQ was. You seem to ignore how good ability being ethereal is, especially when that can be topped with a damage shield, mirror image, stoneskin and so on. High HP is not that helpful, especially since Olm is easy to gang on and gets no recuperation or regeneration. Oh, you seem to ignore that VQ was and is IMMORTAL meaning that she could joyously ignore the possibility of death in friendly dominion AND afflictions!

And I don't get what being a Blood power has to do with VQ's since their best potential abilities (low pathcosts thus magic versatile thus the buff mishmash, life drain from the start, flying, stealth, immortality and etherality) has nothing at all to do with Blood magic. In fact you're propably better off ignoring her starting blood and death magic.

I do agree that VQ was nerefed to oblivion now.

[Action]

Nerfix said:
Oh, you seem to ignore that VQ was and is IMMORTAL meaning that she could joyously ignore the possibility of death in friendly dominion AND afflictions!

This really can't be emphasized enough.

One lucky crossbow can make your Olm useless for a looong time.

The ability to heal your afflictions is just incredible.

[Endoperez]

She's a pretender who can kill most Bane Lord thugs, without equipment, most of the time and will come right back after she loses thanks to immortality. If she kills even 5% of your army every turn, as she can, you'll slowly diminish. Agarthan undead Oracle pretender doesn't fly, but is immortal and used in a similar fashion.

[Nerfix]

Oh, the Agarthan lich is a monster. He's pretty lumbering and needs equipment but the HP's are mean. And Agartha can easily forge (on EA and MA) the Fireshield - Elemental Armor - Boots of Quickness Holy Trinity of SC Equipment. On LA they can kit him with Lucky Pendant and Amulet of Antimagic.

[mivayan]

FrankTrollman said:
Oh honestly who gives a crap? By the time you're slapping all that magic on somebody you might as well add "body ethereal" and start with any creature at all.

But then you have to give up one of the other five buffs.

The legend of how awesome Vampire Queens are was started by a man who played Ashen Fields Ermor and cheated for hundreds of gems starting from turn 1! Sure, he was unstoppable, but it wasn't because of the Vampire Queen.

Norfleet cheated? huh. I played against him a few times.

The Ancient Olhm can do everything the VQ is claimed to do except that he starts with magic that is actually useful (Water and Earth) and a decent pile of hit points. Vampire Queens have an awesome mystique about them, but they aren't even particularly good unless you happen to be a blood power.

Dominions 2 vampire queen....
If you accidently run an ancient olhm into some undead, it'll get tired. And die. A VQ has 0 encumberance.

If your opponent hates your ageless Olm enough, he'll cast vengeance of the dead 20 times, which will get through sooner or later. Doesn't work on undead.

An ageless olm, fighting constantly, will eventually get horrible afflictions. On a VQ they go away quickly.

And if you slightly overestimate an indep province, or a huge enemy army in your dominion, you're screwed with the Olm.

You cant put a hat and armor with +magic resistance on an ancient olm. Nor boots of quickness.

You cant attack a province 3 steps away any time you want.