vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+ ?

Zeldor · #1 March 26th, 2008, 08:13 AM

Omnirizon:

Hmm... that Sickle idea is brilliant, if it works it is rather a bug though or at least exploit that should be blocked in game.

BesucherXia · #2 March 26th, 2008, 08:24 AM

Hmm...
I will suggest changing the Sickle so it can never harvest gems from mindless units, who are obviously out of "pain".

vfb · #3 March 26th, 2008, 08:41 AM

IMO Vengeance of the Dead is buggy too, for including undead kills in its dead count. It's the souls of the dead you slew coming back to haunt you. So when you double up, where the heck did those extra undead come from?

I think it's unfair to cast this again if the unit you are trying to kill survives. Once is fair game though.

Vengeance does have an MR check, so you should do what you can to increase your MR to reduce your chances of being affected.

Undead are immune, so if you're really desperate you could use Twiceborn and kill yourself.

Omnirizon · #4 March 26th, 2008, 08:58 AM

Quote:

vfb said:
IMO Vengeance of the Dead is buggy too, for including undead kills in its dead count. It's the souls of the dead you slew coming back to haunt you. So when you double up, where the heck did those extra undead come from?

Its the same mechanics as reincarnation. If reincarnation is true, than how does the population of the world increase? The person living now is only the soul of someone who lived before. They don't die and create a soul of their present life in addition to their last one. So as population increases, where are all the extra souls coming from?

vfb · #5 March 26th, 2008, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Omnirizon said:

Quote:

vfb said:
IMO Vengeance of the Dead is buggy too, for including undead kills in its dead count. It's the souls of the dead you slew coming back to haunt you. So when you double up, where the heck did those extra undead come from?

Its the same mechanics as reincarnation. If reincarnation is true, than how does the population of the world increase? The person living now is only the soul of someone who lived before. They don't die and create a soul of their present life in addition to their last one. So as population increases, where are all the extra souls coming from?

Well, obviously reincarnation as you have interpreted it is logically inconsistent: If "the person living now is only the soul of someone who lived before" and "the population of the world increases" are mutually exclusive, and we know "the population of the world increases" to be true, then "the person living now is only the soul of someone who lived before" is false. In conclusion, Bandar must take death scales.

To get back to the point, there's no need for Vengeance to be inconsistent like this. If undead kills aren't counted towards the kill count for the raised souls in Vengeance, then everything will be fine.

kasnavada · #6 March 26th, 2008, 09:58 AM

Errr...

The people killed in the dreamed caused by the spell shouldn't be counted, that's true even from a logical point of view. Think of it : the guy that got killed now has two, three or more soul ! It's completely illogical !

triqui · #7 March 26th, 2008, 10:20 AM

Quote:

kasnavada said:
Errr...

The people killed in the dreamed caused by the spell shouldn't be counted, that's true even from a logical point of view. Think of it : the guy that got killed now has two, three or more soul ! It's completely illogical !

That might work as a partial solution (at least it avoid the cummulative aspect, and allow you to retire the character for a while, until you have access to better equipment, like more MR). However, it still makes VotD the most powerful anti-character overland spell, when you compare the resarch cost and gem cost. It is much better than mind hunt for example.

Foodstamp · #8 March 26th, 2008, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Omnirizon said:

Quote:

vfb said:
IMO Vengeance of the Dead is buggy too, for including undead kills in its dead count. It's the souls of the dead you slew coming back to haunt you. So when you double up, where the heck did those extra undead come from?

Its the same mechanics as reincarnation. If reincarnation is true, than how does the population of the world increase? The person living now is only the soul of someone who lived before. They don't die and create a soul of their present life in addition to their last one. So as population increases, where are all the extra souls coming from?

New souls right? Do the "mechanics" of reincarnation say anything about brand new souls entering the mix?

kasnavada · #9 March 26th, 2008, 01:57 PM

There might also be, just to give numbers, a total of 1 billion souls in many places, with "only" 1 million "alive". Leaving place for extension.

Agrajag · #10 March 26th, 2008, 02:23 PM

Yeah, there could be a lot more available souls then souls "in use". The more people there are, the less time it takes each soul to reincarnate.

As for a counter, how about a sufficiently strong fire shield? If it is strong enough to kill a soul in one hit, then all the souls will be annihilated fairly quickly, as a new soul comes to take the place of a killed soul in the same turn it is killed. (I've never tried VotD, so I don't know how tough the undead are to see if such a thing is possible/viable)