vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+ ?

[Foodstamp]

I have a great fix for this problem. Let's don't fix it! Do we really want to limit how we can kill Supercombatants? Do you really want to create an endgame where as soon as a Supercombatant is equipped, the player can breathe a sigh of relief because he has won the game, the rest of the turns just being an exercise of moving around the map flipping flags?

[triqui]

Foodstamp said:
I have a great fix for this problem. Let's don't fix it! Do we really want to limit how we can kill Supercombatants? Do you really want to create an endgame where as soon as a Supercombatant is equipped, the player can breathe a sigh of relief because he has won the game, the rest of the turns just being an exercise of moving around the map flipping flags?

This is not an "endgame" spell. It is thaumathurgy 4. It can be cast easily on turn 15 against any awake pretender (it has been on my game). Do you suggest that only valid strategy should be imprisoned pretenders for scales or dual bless?
In endgame there are much better options than VotD anyways. Mind hunt KILLS you if you fail the MR, instead of making you to fight against ethereal zombies.

[kasnavada]

There are a lot of other ways to take care of supercombattant in a battle, and a lot of threads speak of it... what you basically said here is that if I choose the wyrm as pretender and give him a few anti-magic items, I already won the game. Pardon my bluntness, but it's stupid.

The proposed fixes would also have other repercussions that you can take advantage of.
Example : 20 artillery mages with 50 kills each are forever protected as long as an SC is there. If every ghosts comes back only once, that means that the next casting of the spell will kill one of those artillery mages, which have lower MR and, for most of them, have simply no chance to beat up that many ghosts without a meat shield.

Besides, relying on that spell only to kill SC means something else. That whoever has that spell and the mages to cast it has won the game against an opponent that uses SC. That's about as balanced as the imaginary "invincible" first SC you speak of.

[triqui]

kasnavada said:
There are a lot of other ways to take care of supercombattant in a battle, and a lot of threads speak of it... what you basically said here is that if I choose the wyrm as pretender and give him a few anti-magic items, I already won the game. Pardon my bluntness, but it's stupid.

Exactly. There are SEVERAL ways to kill them without needing to exploit a BUG in a spell that make the defender lose the battle at round 75 instead of the attacker as the RULES SAY.

The proposed fixes would also have other repercussions that you can take advantage of.
Example : 20 artillery mages with 50 kills each are forever protected as long as an SC is there. If every ghosts comes back only once, that means that the next casting of the spell will kill one of those artillery mages, which have lower MR and, for most of them, have simply no chance to beat up that many ghosts without a meat shield.

Right.
If you remove the kill when you fight them in the dream, as i suggested, after one single round of combat the big bad SC will have 0 kills, and the next spell will affect the combat mages.

Besides, relying on that spell only to kill SC means something else. That whoever has that spell and the mages to cast it has won the game against an opponent that uses SC. That's about as balanced as the imaginary "invincible" first SC you speak of.

They are relying on it to kill the SC becouse it is the fastest way to do so by far. It is only 360 research points away from the start of the game, easy to do at turn 15-17.

People need to realize that some nations (like bogarus), really NEED an awake pretender SC, if only for early expansion and protection versus bless/elefant rushes? How in the hell are you going to defend yourself in turn 15 against a rush with bogarus if you dont have an awake SC? With your late age precision 8 *shortbows*?

I dont want SC to completelly rule the game from start to end. But awake combat pretenders should be a viable strategy, and this spell pretty much destroy it with no chance of survival, not becouse of the spell, but becouse of the BUG in the spell.

EDIT: rereading your post, i think you are actually talking to the poster above me, not me, so sorry for my previus post . I edit properly

[Foodstamp]

You guys are assuming a lot. Can you point me to the MP thread where someone with MP experience has complained because an enemy is spamming VoTD against him?

An opponent's SC has to make it into the hall of fame to be a realistic target. Then a nation that actually has the paths to cast the spell has to find the SC and cast at that province. Then the nation that casts the spell has to hang tight with the SC, following him around the map to know where he is, to cast the spell again and again. This is really only feasible if the SC is in the casters provinces, because one misstep by the spotter scout and the SC is safe.

The spell is not stupid, the spell has never been an issue in any of my MP games. If it needs any tweaking, it needs to be fixed where when an Immortal dies to it while targeted in his own dominion, he goes back to his capital. As it stands now, it seems the combat takes place in a neutral zone, causing immortals to die. There does not need to be counters to the spell that nullify it or completely protect an SC. I should add, if the SC has any amount of magic resistance, the spell fails frequently.

If you guys do succeed in your quest to nerf fun and unique spells in this game such as Vengeance of the Dead, what is to stop the same player from spamming Horror Mark on your precious SC? Maybe we should nerf that too seeing how it is equally a death sentence, and even worse for a pretender. Maybe after that, you guys can petition to get rid of "Curse" or have it made curable. I mean, it is not fair that you created that supercombatant pretender just to have some indy shaman curse it forever. Hopefully by the time your done, all we will have is generic fantasy game spells like magic missile and fireball.

I guess in short what I am telling you is:

"Cry more noob."

[kasnavada]

Duh. The OP is victim of this and started the thread. Not to mention all people in the other thread just a few post before.

There is no "assuming" anything here.

And the reason is that it's an abuse :
- the fleeing attackers rout but stay,
- automatic "turn limit" kills the SC, not a game action.

The automatic turn limit is something that doesn't make sense. Comparing it to curse and horror marks is ridiculous !

Finally, personnal attacks such as "cry more noob" defeats the point of answering... it justs destroys your credibility.

[Foodstamp]

Duh, he has about a month of playing the game under his belt. Maybe when he has two months, he will equip an amulet of antimagic.

[kasnavada]

Why I am wasting time here... That point about the anti-magic amulet has already been countered in the 10 pages of this thread and the other one.

[Foodstamp]

I am too lazy to look through all these tears, but I guarantee I can show you several posts explaining to you two how to counter the spell.

The game should not be "I don't want to counter this spell so nerf it please."

The beauty of this game is the complexity, the counters, the counters to those counters etc. I would think a fan of the Dune series would appreciate such a system of complexity.

[Tuidjy]

I have killed enemy SCs with Vengeance of the Dead very, very early. I was
playing a rainbow bless with MA Ermor, and I think I had it before the end
of the first year. I attacked a province with neutral dominion with a
bunch of mage/priests, set them to preach for the turn and retreat in combat.

The enemy Pretender came, and routed the priests, but on that turn the dominion
was 3 for me. I cast a few VoD. The pretender, a Virtue, failed her second MR
check, and died. Note that it was not because of the bug, but because of her
encumberance and her 100+ kills. But still, there was no way she was going to
kill them all in 75 turns. And even if she had some form of quickness and
reinvigoration, next time, there would have been 200+.