What could we steal from other fantasy games...

[MaxWilson]

Twan said:
I tend to agree with weimaar. I find item forging in MoM far more interesting and immersive than in dominions. Then of course there may be a lot of balance issues with this one approach.

I had a lot of fun with the Master of Magic system, but I didn't actually need all the variety because I was just going to either forge 1.) a cheap item to get me through the interim, or 2.) a top-line item with +4/+4/Invisibility/Flying to put on my thugs. As far as I know this is quite possible in Dominions. Just make more higher-path items that have combinations of powers, maybe Hydra Armor + Amulet of Luck. It won't be perfect (you can't control the cost separately from paths, and it can't cost more than two gem types) but you don't need support from the software so much as you need a set of rules for forging prices, and those rules don't necessarily need to come from Illwinter.

For instance, some item costs:

Luck costs S2.
Regeneration 10% costs N3.
Quickness costs W2.
+10 to damage and +4 to attack costs F2.
AP damage on a weapon costs E1.
AN costs D2.
Misc slot items deduct 1 from total cost.

So I decide to forge a FireSword which is built on a broadsword but has att 4 and dmg 16 plus Luck. F2S2. Throw it in the mod you're using for your current game (even if you don't want any rules changes it's smart to use an empty mod, so you can edit the rules if necessary later without starting a new game, for instance to fix a bug).

-Max

[thejeff]

Boosters would be the main problem with some kind of generic in-game item design system.

Just create a 1S booster for every slot...

Even for more combat oriented items, one of the main hassles with kitting out a SC is covering all the vulnerabilities while still having enough offense. With a design system it would be worth it to cover all resistances, boost Protection & Defense, boost MR sky-high, add luck, ethereal, etc

There's a reason there are only a few ways to get many of these traits and why you have to devote a whole slot to them.

[Taqwus]

Yup.

Compare, say, the Angband games -- which have detailed inventory, but a LOT of attack forms and properties, making inventory selection an interesting problem -- w/ something like MOM (where a hero can simultaneously be immune to practically all magic, near impervious to missile fire, invisible {bugged}, flying, hasted... with a bow that fires phantasmal arrows treating enemy defense at 0.)

[JimMorrison]

Couple things-


First, on customizable units, I find this to be one of the most intriguing and interesting facets of a game that allows it. First of all, you would only have a select few chassis to build off of per race, according to what they can make. Second, there is already a robust system of gold/resource costs per equipment. There is the point that this MAY have a complicated imapact on balance..... On the one hand, I don't think there would be a "perfect" gear set, some people would go for plate for high prot, others might go scale or chain for lower enc. But it would allow a bit of tinkering such as if someone prefers mauls on their units, or likes falchions. Where it becomes complicated, is at the point of making a DW unit for a nation that usually doesn't get one, or adding shields on a nation that is supposed to be complicated by their lack thereof. I'd think that if the customization were developed for an eventual Dom4 however, that each gear type could be flagged such that everyone's available gear is different. An example would be that Coral and Meteorite armors would only be available aquatically, and only Ulm could outfit with Blacksteel. By the same token, some nations could be barred from kite shields, some would not use polearms, or perhaps would only have one particular chassis available that was flagged for 2h weapons at all. There are a lot of ways to tweak the system so that it gives people a little bit of flexibility, and the ability to play by their own preferences even when it gives no overt advantage, but still add depth to the gameplay. Also, it might be worthwhile to tie modifications in to Construction research in some way. At least for the magic items like Caelian crafted ice, or Blacksteel, you would need Cons research before you could add those special items to your own designs.


Regarding the item forging, again I think that people aren't looking at the interesting ways that these items could be limited. The first thing that I would do, is limit items to one path period, unless there were a costly and time consuming system for artifact creation. These single path items, could ONLY duplicate effects that you had access to via research. So, they would give a little help to people who went for spells before working on Cons, but their items would only reproduce the effects of spells that they can already cast. For example if you wanted a regen item, you'd have to unlock Personal Regeneration first. As to artifact construction, I think it would take some brainstorming to work out a system that makes it compelling to players, while insuring that the items are no more powerful than artifacts already available, but are significantly more costly to create. Also, adding risks of different kinds to artifact creation, such that an item that needs 50 blood slaves to create, could fail and summon a powerful demon that attacks the forger, or an incredibly powerful astral based item has a chance to leave the forger Lost in Time and Space, that sort of thing.



One other thing that I think could be interesting, would be the ability to create free form mercenary bands. The idea being that you would be able to hire independant mercenaries in a province, beyond your natural resources. The costs would be significant, you would not get to choose your commander type or unit type (though having the units be randomly chosen from what is trainable in the province makes sense), you would get a number of men somewhat relative to the amount you threw down to create the company, but there would be a random factor to it as well, to add the element of risk to it. I think this could be an interesting system for multiplayer, so that people have more options to remain competitive at game start, as well as giving a little more flexibility in how you deal with surprises. Of course, these mercenary bands would have the same 3 month contract, with the ability to renew at the end of the contract.

On the subject of mercenaries, I'd also like to see the mercenary bands that already exist, regenerate their numbers in some way. I mean if they take losses, they still demand the same amount of gold, you would think the excess would be used by the captain to replenish his manpower. They are mercenaries after all, if they're not really exotic like trolls or foulspawn or something, they should be able to hire more men, something like 10% a turn or something, which for most bands would only be 2-3 per month, rather slow but worthwhile if those mercs add something to your nation.



Just some thoughts, feel free to shoot some holes in them. <3

[Saulot]

Some nice ideas floating around.

One that has around 0% of being implemented, but is neat anyway, is the bounty system in Sins of a Solar Empire.

I would suppose one way of doing the dominions version would be a variant on the global Looming Hell, where instead of it targetting armies inside the casting nations dominion, it targets random commanders of target nation, and they get attacked by various indep. assassin units; demonbreds, empoisoners, ninjas, slayers, stalkers, star children, etc.

Each successful attempt subtracted some gold from you. Each unsuccessful attempt subtracted half as much.

[nordlys]

Full-fledged diplomacy in SP, as per MOM/MOO/Civ etc. Alliances, NAPs, trade of gold/gems/items/units/provinces, maybe even spells (that demands a slight change in spell research system, making not all spells per school available at every level but some random percentage of them). Works for MP too, but SP doesn't even have "unofficial" diplomacy.

Multi-turn movement orders via waypoints would be helluva useful too. And queuing (sp?) orders in general, like "move prov 1, move prov 2, cast summon something, move prov 2, move prov 1".

[Aezeal]

I personally don't mind teh diplomacy in SP.. in all other games diplomacty is usually so easy to abuse and the AI so bad at it that as it is in dom 3 is to be preferred really.

[Twan]

MoM has never been a game balanced for multiplayer. (hum not, in fact it could have been one.... as I doubt anyone would have been able to find the time to forge one uber MoM item against human opponents, remember the dozen of turns to make anything good)

Anyway, designing items doesn't mean no restrictions, and unlimited power for a done item.

Things like magic paths boost would have an hard limit with a limited number of cumulative effects no matter where the item is.

And there would be also soft limits, like different costs for the same powers on different slots, so if you want to enchant offensive items with defensive powers to cover all resist it's an huge investment ; and of course another soft limit would be research in appropriate paths needed to make each power available.

It's not hard to design a good and balanced system, just perhaps too much work for what it would add (and compared to the interest of UI improvements dom4 may have if its made one day).

[Jazzepi]

You could also institute a limit on the cost of the item based on your construction research.

Say that arrow fend and invulnerability for a chest slot item cost 50 gems (or something like that). For each level of construction you research you'd be getting access to a new "max cap" for the amount of gems in a given item you want to forge.

Level 2 might open up 10 gem items, level 3 15 gems items, level 4 20 gems, level 5 25, and level 9 would remove the cap entirely.

Jazzepi