LA Atlantis - frozen death from all directions

[Ming]

Against R'yleh LAm Atlantis might need to watch out more for shambler thralls than illthids. Illithids cost 2x that of arssartut (and 4x the maintenance) while shambler thralls cost the same 25 gold. Instead of fielding 50 illithids he can field 100 shambers or a combination, which could be quite effective (of course this assumes that R'yleh has a 2:1 advantage in gold income).

[Baalz]

must...not...get...pulled...into...playing...theor yminions. Dang, failed that savings throw. You go right ahead and field shamblers and see how they fare against mournful mixed in your Arrastuts. What's that? They can't scratch the size 3, 15 protection guys and get demolished by their halberds? Or was R'yleh fielding illthids and shamblers and chaff and slave guardians all at the same time? Come on, this is just silly, you've got the tools to fight the good fight not a silver bullet.

I must say, I'm getting a surprising amount of pushback on this guide.

1) Nobody said R'yleh is a pushover no matter what you do. Atlantis is much better equipped to fight them than any other nation in LA, and if you can take them out you are absolutely entrenched under water even more so than R'yleh was.

2) Atlantis is also at least as well equipped to take down LA Ermor as anybody else with net 0 encumbrance troops well protected enough that their small regen is mostly all they need vs chaff in order to live forever, backed by priests and all the best anti-undead spells. Plus Arrastuts hit hard enough that they kill Ermor's undead chaff even when they hit their tower shields. Try it out - they *demolish* practically unlimited amounts of undead and never get tired. I really can't see how a W bless is superior.

Those two points alone make this build worth considering seeing as how LA games often pan out. Add to it:

A solid initial expansion
A very low upkeep
(those first two more than make up for the death scales, by quite a lot)
Sacred infantry that is very effective at killing everything from chaff to SCs - with MR and resistance to be relevant the whole game.
A very good defensive position few want to attack - punishing scales & partially being underwater means it's both difficult and expensive to take you out.
Great mobility for heavy infantry coupled with sailing coupled by the fact you're focussed on operating around the water (unlike other sailing nations)
Recruitable holy thugs who can cast soul vortex and ironskin or mistform with full slots, an earth bless, can quicken self (goes great with soul vortex and earth blessing), and small regen.
Great summons with national mages
Good combat magic which is a bit different than what most people are equipped to handle
Strong death mages - great for end game
A strong astral pretender - great for end game
A strong earth pretender - great for mid/end game
Every magic path other than blood site searched, and everything other than air/fire/blood with a strong mage to use your income.

All in all a solid build for a solid nation. Certainly there are other ways to play them, but I have to say I'm a bit surprised so many people think my suggestions are weak.

[JimMorrison]

I think most people who are trying to shoot holes in this guide are just carrying their previous conceptions of the nation forward with them.

I have to admit, I don't think I'm alone in feeling kind of hesitant about a dual 9 bless (with a minor!) for capital only sacreds.

With just a capital only sacred, and no sacred summons, it just seems very iffy. I believe in your guide, if for nothing else than it espouses the prodigious use of a few of my favorite niche spells. Maybe that's the other sticking point for most people? If they don't see Ghost Grip as being particularly effective for example, who knows which of the other spells they discount, and thus don't see an "effective" strategy resulting from all of the pieces?

[Dedas]

I think a dual bless for capital only sacreds is good only if the sacreds in questions are:

A. Cheap in resources.
B. Good in battle against several kinds of enemy.
C. Decent map movement.

LA Atlantis' sacreds are all that and more. So yes, I do believe in a double bless for LA Atlantis.

[K]

Also note that your soulless are often Soulless of Atlantis and they might have Coral Spears(poison) or coral armor(poison).

It's kind of cute to see undead in pink armor.

[Ming]

Baalz,

You are greatly mistaken if you are under the impression that I think your suggestions are weak.

If you recall, my first post in this thread was "I have always struggled to make LA Atlantis work and your guide has some interesting suggestions". That was meant to be a sincere compliment. I have tried - AND FAILED - to make LA Atlantas work and your guide is the first workable solution to playing LA Atlantis that I have seen. My subsequent comments should be seen within this context.

I do have some reservations on some of the points you made (but taken as a whole I think your suggestions are valid), and I presented them more out of a wish to better understand your thinking than because I have any conviction that they are definitely wrong.

Anyway, I apologise if I gave the wrong impression. I, and I am sure many others too, appreciate your sharing your insights on La Atlantas with us.

[Twan]

As well I never said this guide was bad, just spoke about another build I had a good results with (all the spells use being about the same).

I even agree your double bless is probably better in most cases (especially with Rlyeh in the game, and if you are not lucky with indie mages sites).