Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41

[Dedas]

What I want to show is not that the pikeneers can repel but that they can't be repelled. That gives them an edge over axe men (length 3). More so to hammer men (length 1) who will often get repelled, even by broad swords (length 2) because of their rather low morale (10-11) and low defense (10-11). Battle axe guys are easier to repel (defense (6-7) but you need a spear (length 4 to 3).

Pikeneers can ignore all this that would have been a problem (due to low defense) without their pike (length) and can just strike unhindered. And they are greatly helped by the extra attack bonus from the CBM pike (from 11 to 12).

[chrispedersen]

I hear ya on this Dedas, but in a game of rocks scissors paper the answer is archers.

I think perhaps the answer is to bump the pikes cost up by 1-2, to correspond to the increased attack, or to lower the other units an equivalent amount.

[Dedas]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

I hear ya on this Dedas, but in a game of rocks scissors paper the answer is archers.

I think perhaps the answer is to bump the pikes cost up by 1-2, to correspond to the increased attack, or to lower the other units an equivalent amount.

Yes, I wish it was that simple. The thing is that CBM changes the whole weapon type 'pike'. That means other units in other nations as well (not many but a few). And if you change one thing you usually have to change another to keep balance. My point is that it is simpler to just revert back to the standard pike as it actually worked as it was intended. This whole "issue" and the fix was created by people wanting the pike to work against cavalry charges (just like in real life). The thing is that the current combat mechanics can't simulate that without causing problems in other parts, like the pikes balance against other weapons.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Dedas

My point is that it is simpler to just revert back to the standard pike as it actually worked as it was intended. This whole "issue" and the fix was created by people wanting the pike to work against cavalry charges (just like in real life). The thing is that the current combat mechanics can't simulate that without causing problems in other parts, like the pikes balance against other weapons.

I don't think the original pikes are worth buying at all. They aren't just competing with MA Ulm two handed weapon guys and hammer users (the hammer is a truly awful weapon), they're competing with other infantry and have high resource cost, no shield, mapmove 1 and so on.

Could you do a quick test for me? (I can't run dom3 right now) Set a pike unit to morale 30, att 30, def 1. Set an enemy unit to morale 2, att 30, prot and hp as high as possible. I just want to confirm 100% that the repel morale check comes before the prot check. I believe it does, but it would be nice to be certain. By using those settings you would expect the attacking unit to be repelled every time. If he isn't repelled then it's down to his prot.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Dedas

What I want to show is not that the pikeneers can repel but that they can't be repelled. That gives them an edge over axe men (length 3). More so to hammer men (length 1) who will often get repelled, even by broad swords (length 2) because of their rather low morale (10-11) and low defense (10-11). Battle axe guys are easier to repel (defense (6-7) but you need a spear (length 4 to 3).

Pikeneers can ignore all this that would have been a problem (due to low defense) without their pike (length) and can just strike unhindered. And they are greatly helped by the extra attack bonus from the CBM pike (from 11 to 12).

To avoid any of your troops being repelled all you need to do is cast sermon of courage on them anyway imo. An extra 2 morale makes a big difference.

I think the issue is more that the other Ulmish infantry suck at fighting (though they make passable chaff) than pikes being too good. I think pikes should be something special anyway, they certainly are historically and it isn't like pikes and long spears are common weapons in dom3. They also exist in the age of crossbows largely, where they get blasted really easily, like all 2 handers.

Regardless pikes aren't broken or anything, but maybe they are better than the other MA Ulm infantry choices. Those could do with a boost anyway imo.