MP: Asia Twist - Wraithlord Wins!

[DonCorazon]

Thanks for hosting Pasha with your typical impeccable style and grace. I am honored to participate in your games.

Congrats Wraithlord, however you may have won. "All is fair in love and war". If someone did just hand you a VP, well, I personally would never do that since I think both from an RPG and a good sportsman perspective it makes no sense, but suppose there is nothing explicitly against it in the rules and some people do seem to like the idea of being vassals. The Don, however,always chooses to die on his feet, rather than live on his knees... and would hope others to do the same.

But you are quite a charmer I must say, perhaps a little thick with the flattery for my tastes but you seem to be quite effective with others. I called you out as being the one who'd win this game long ago (see thread somewhere a while back), but my own diplomatic energy was drained after Ashdod - I was too fatigued with PMs / coordination to take the lead again in another "alliance", and nobody heeded my warnings. Even still I tried to attack you in the spirit of trying to do what I could, but could see it was going to weaken the defense of my own VPs (even still I refused a formal NAP to hopefully keep you off guard). Thus ended the last offensive of the Pangean war machine.

Even while it was an epic game, I found this game helped crystallize a number of issues I have with certain game settings. Gem generator fatigue for one - I finally got sick of clams and bloodstones and just stopped making them.

Diplomacy for another - and in particular how it often means success can be most readily achieved by turtling/preying on the weak and waiting for others to fight the tough wars. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, and in fact it is known by many that the best way to win wars is never to fight a fair one. And I certainly did my best to make the war against Ashdod lopsided by bringing in anyone I could (but note everyone who fought the big A ultimately lost).

And this leaves something lacking to me in MP games. The most interesting fights are the balanced ones. Yet those are exactly the ones that help everyone else but the nations fighting. i am not sure what the answer is but it bothers me both as a player that relies on the strategy many times, and has been hurt when straying from it a few times. I think the answer is smaller maps / fewer players and/or RAND style games. Either that, or I just need to reserve more time for these diplomatically intense games and remind myself to let others fight the tough wars. I think I prefer the former though.

Another thing that kind of irritates me about Dominions is the undue influence certain indies can have on the game, but i suppose it makes each game interesting. It sure sucks when you don't find anything decent though. Jot's teleporting iron adepts mitigated my own horde of maenads from hostile action, since he could teleport in front of my armies, getting first cast defense advantage and splat my hordes with an RoS. That sucked.

I like the map, though i wish it had a little less movement limiting terrain.

Anyway, that's enough ramblings from a sleep-deprived new dad for now. Good game all, look forward to playing again some time.

[WraithLord]

@rdonj, I have seen what you describe happen many times over. Sometimes it was not one nation but 2-3 that did their best to crown someone. I was many times on the losing side of this and while it was frustrating at the moment. I just took this in good spirit and started thinking what the winner did better than me that I can improve - the answer was almost always the same: diplomacy. In past game I have experienced (and ultimately lost the game to) deceits, hidden trades, transfer of whole gem/item/gold inventory, forge whoring and what not.
Do I personally support this?- Well it is annoying I'll admit, from the noble perspective of everything must be a fair fight. However, I learned that in dominions, like in love, like in war, like in life its not all black and white and romanticized. In diplomacy game you'd always have to deal with this stuff as well. So for now I'm getting more fun out of RAND games but that doesn't say that diplo game are not fun - they just require different mind set to play and enjoy well.

@DonC, Thank you for the congrats. Coming from you - my "incorruptible" arch-enemy this means a lot!
And yes, I meant that bit above. I have considered you my most bitter opponent throughout the game. Had it not been to the fear of you and Caelum jumping me I'd have dealt with Van a lot earlier (with help from friends of course, one doesn't go to wars or parties alone ).
Re. flattery. Perhaps it's a cultural thing. Where I grew up ppl are very emphatic and sympathetic and are generous with compliments. I'm sorry if you find this in bad taste. I truly believe my compliments and I am not using flattery. I hate flattery. I'll try to moderate my compliments when talking to N. Americans as clearly there's a cultural gap here.

I hear what you're saying re. staying out of the tough fights. Let me tell you that I was once in the exact spot where you stand now. Then I lost a few games due to *not* taking action in time (most notable first RAND where I could have made a big difference but b/c I didn't take action ended up losing to Micah).

Gem gens I came to dislike. I want to try a few games w/o them and see if like the settings w/o them.

Indies and luck in the game are things that love in dominions. Sometimes you are benefiting from those sometimes not but they do serve to make each game unique and interesting.

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Now to most important stuff:
Congrats to new DON dad to a newborn
Peace and happiness to the family and may you find some time in the future to cont. playing DOM with us
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[WraithLord]

One more thing. I think AARs are nice and have so far been very lacking in this dpt. (won quite a few games but never did an AAR).
I already got one request to do this AAR. I'd like to know whether this is something that ppl are interested in?- I want to know b/c it takes a lot of work to produce...

@Pasha, could you be so generous as to send to me some (or better, all) of the turn files?- Besides being interesting, I could use that stuff for my AAR.

[archaeolept]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

Congrats Wraithlord, however you may have won. "All is fair in love and war". If someone did just hand you a VP, well, I personally would never do that since I think both from an RPG and a good sportsman perspective it makes no sense, but suppose there is nothing explicitly against it in the rules

This does, I think, get to part of the heart of the issue. Certainly colluding to have the game thrown was not explicitly against the rules, but has it really come to this? Do all possible bad behaviours need to be explicitly forbidden in a game's OP? Rather, I would say there is a whole host of behaviours that are implicitly rejected; hacking, looking at someone's unpassworded turn, not entering a game with the intention of trying to win or at least play well. Certainly Wraithlord won; it is the manner of winning that is under dispute.

As a sort of Kantian, I might look at these implicit rules and conventions as to good play as those things which are the conditions for the possibility of good games of Dominions. I would argue that what happened here is destructive of the possibility of good games. Diplomacy is a fact of life, and the results are rarely fair, but I would maintain there is a significant difference between actively supporting an ally, and eventually helping him to victory, and doing an end-run against the actual fighting, you know, the actual playing of the game, in order to guarantee a "cheap" and easy victory.