Mod: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available

[HoneyBadger]

I'm pretty excited about this mod. I'm a big fan of Tolkien and thought I'd put my 2c in about the Heroes vs Summons debate.

Please feel free to ignore them .

Originally Posted by LumenPlacidum

A little research into Tolkien mythos indicates that the Witch King was essentially on his own as a Nazgul until Angmar was destroyed and he fled to the Morgul Vale, when he met up with the other 8 ringwraiths. As such, perhaps he should be alone as a unique summon for Angmar.

I was thinking about this, and it would (to me, anyway) be really neat if each of the 9 ringwraiths was a unique summon. That's something Tolkien never got around to. Only 2 of the ringwraiths even have names. This is an interesting Nation by itself, but adding a bunch of unique summons I think would make it stand out, not only as a Tolkien-based Nation, but even compared to all the Vanilla and Mod Nations already out there.

Also, actual magic users are very rare in Middle Earth, so having the Ring Wraiths and Pretender as your main/more or less only casters, with heroes providing additional spellpower, would make the Nation very interesting to play, I think.



As heroes, you'd only get 6 of them, at best, and I think there's plenty of other options here for heroes/multiheroes.

Suggestion for possible Heroes: Saruman (E3/F2/A1/W1/N1/B1/H1, elderly but self-healing, 25% forging bonus), Mouth of Sauron (high leadership, some magical ability: S2/D2/B2? possibly H4?), Gothmog (high leadership, high morale, possible Boldog--see below), Shagrat (very large, extremely tough orc with very high Prot and possibly even Awe--he won the battle of Cirith Ungol and he's got the mithril coat), Grond (construct with high Seige bonus, produces Mountain Trolls), Corsair Lord of Ships (excellent Sailing, could have a secondform that rides a Mumakil, strong Banner in either form, could occasionally produce Mumakil-riding Black Corsairs.).

Suggestion for Multiheroes: Mordor Troll--huge, relatively intelligent, very nasty troll with spiked armour, Boldog--largest, meanest, smartest orcs around, might even have some magical ability (from Wikipedia: Boldog (…) is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs. Melkor had corrupted many spirits — some great as Sauron, or less as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive Orcs.)

It seems to me that, considering that Sauron is just a disembodied spirit at this point in time, instead of giving Angmar the Witch-King as a starting commander (The Witch-King in the books doesn't really show up until late in the game), you might possibly give them a "Sauron's Shadow" unit, which would have immortality, etheriality, and a patrol bonus, but no physical stats (1 hp, 0 Str, etc.), only 1 mapmove, and no actual magic, but the ability to lead your mindless trolls, and the sun-fearing varieties of orcs (since "the Uruk-hai and Olog-hai could fight in the sunlight, as long as they were under Sauron's Shadow.").

Speaking of uruk-hai and olog-hai, have you considered that they might be a Summons? possibly Blood/Nature, along the lines of Crossbreeding?

By the way, do you have any intention to include Shelob? Maybe as a Unique, in place of a starting scout? Could be (appropriately, I think) a good early Rush deterrant. You could make her a stealthy cannibal (so that she eats orcs) with no Leadership.

[LumenPlacidum]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

I was thinking about this, and it would (to me, anyway) be really neat if each of the 9 ringwraiths was a unique summon. That's something Tolkien never got around to. Only 2 of the ringwraiths even have names. This is an interesting Nation by itself, but adding a bunch of unique summons I think would make it stand out, not only as a Tolkien-based Nation, but even compared to all the Vanilla and Mod Nations already out there.

Well, I'm sort of making the assumption that the other ringwraiths are about in the world, but are not tasked with any duties in bringing down the kingdom of Arnor. This leaves wide open the concept of the Nazgul being unique summons, which would be perfectly fine to me, where the summon calls its services, but doesn't create it on the spot. This is quite possible as a way of going about getting them, but it also puts a little more control over them in the hands of the player in a time when they were more or less Sauron's only powerful actors in the world, since he had not taken shape.

I was more inclined to have the Nazgul being unique summons (probably at low level conjuration) in the Late Age version of the nation, which I wish to do after this one, which would be modeled on Mordor, not Angmar.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Also, actual magic users are very rare in Middle Earth, so having the Ring Wraiths and Pretender as your main/more or less only casters, with heroes providing additional spellpower, would make the Nation very interesting to play, I think.

I intend for other magic users to be weak, but I didn't really consider that it would be playable to not have any access to other mages. I'd probably have to improve the unique magic users significantly, especially in the research side of things. Or, I could have some cheap magicless commanders with very low research values and a strong death income for skull mentors or something. It's something to ponder. I would very much like to reflect the idea that mages in Middle Earth were rare.

However, in the Lord of the Rings, when the fellowship was traveling south from Rivendell, they were fallen upon by a pack of wargs, led by some sort of magic-using wolf, if I recall. It was pretty much the most blatant use of magic present in the books (Gandalf calling down lightning strikes and such). I need to look it up again, but if that's the case, the magic stuff could be more prevalent on the evil side of things.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Suggestion for possible Heroes: Saruman, Mouth of Sauron, Gothmog, Shagrat, Grond, Corsair Lord of Ships.

Suggestion for Multiheroes: Mordor Troll, Boldog

Those are great ideas, but I think they're better ideas for the Mordor concept for late age, since they're all from that time period. I particularly like having Grond as a heroic construct that generates trolls. I'd probably give it a high standard ability too.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

It seems to me that, considering that Sauron is just a disembodied spirit at this point in time, instead of giving Angmar the Witch-King as a starting commander (The Witch-King in the books doesn't really show up until late in the game)

Well, as far as I know, the books don't go into Angmar terribly much, and the Silmarillion more than the actual trilogy. It seems to me that the Witch King was the founder and ruler of this kingdom all throughout its life if war against Arnor. The fact of the Witch King's presence all through that time period is the reason I'm including him as the starting commander. Though, the different playing dynamic of having such a powerful, unique, and immortal commander early on who represents a sizable chunk of your nation's access to magic is also interesting to me.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

you might possibly give them a "Sauron's Shadow" unit, which would have immortality, ethereality, and a patrol bonus, but no physical stats (1 hp, 0 Str, etc.), only 1 mapmove, and no actual magic, but the ability to lead your mindless trolls, and the sun-fearing varieties of orcs (since "the Uruk-hai and Olog-hai could fight in the sunlight, as long as they were under Sauron's Shadow.").

I do really like this idea, and that's what I'm trying to get at for the trolls. They cannot survive the light of day, so they need to be led by someone who can extend the shadow over them as they go. I dearly wish there was a mechanic that I could use to make them die when not in friendly dominion, because the dominion spread mechanic for them would be perfect. Also, weren't Uruk-hai specifically the orcs that didn't particularly mind being out in the sun? I didn't think they needed a shadow at all, hence Saruman's army of them.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Speaking of uruk-hai and olog-hai, have you considered that they might be a Summons? possibly Blood/Nature, along the lines of Crossbreeding?

I hadn't considered that, but again it makes sense for a Mordor nation, and I do like the idea. I have no idea if there were uruk-hai and olog-hai in the northern parts of the Misty Mountains in that time period. Perhaps Angmar could also have access to the spells, but not have any convenient mages who can cast them, like many of the national spells that get inherited from previous eras.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

By the way, do you have any intention to include Shelob? Maybe as a Unique, in place of a starting scout? Could be (appropriately, I think) a good early Rush deterrant. You could make her a stealthy cannibal (so that she eats orcs) with no Leadership.

I had considered adding Shelob when/if I do Mordor. That's one reason why I had been asking about whether it's possible to mod events. I think Shelob would be fun as one of those indie attack events. She strikes and claims one of your provinces as her own, and is a nasty SC alone. Having her as a starting scout is also quite possible.

Edit: the sprite that I made for the witch king doesn't look quite so dark and homogeneous in the actual game: