DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Gurachn

Thanks for the suggestion Suhiir.
I have that, but it doesn't seem to me to be a very close representation of the battle. Besides its pretty large scale and the 800x600 is a bit limiting.
It would be amazing to get a birds eye view of the different firebases at 1680x1050!

The campaign I found for SP3 seems to be a lot more meticulously researched, from what I can tell from the accompanying txt.
Too bad it seems to be unusable in MBT!

Since the "battle" was in actual fact a siege over several months then it really does not fit any sort of single-battle scenario. A campaign would therefore be best (With no or little repair/reinforcement). The campaign could then showcase a few key "active" assault scenarios perhaps.

There is quite simply no sane way to write any form of conversion utility for SP3 to SP1.
- Each hex is 250 metres, not 50. i.e. about 5x5 WinSPMBT hexes per SP3 hex.
- The contour system is totally different (SP3 had just 3 hill levels, we have 15).
- Each unit is potentially a platoon (2-5 elements). So formation structure does not quite marry up.
- SP3 turn time is also about 5 or ten minutes? - so ~ 5 or 10 times the turn allowance.

So all you can do is take notes and then manually create a map making each SP3 map hex a 5x5 WinSPMBT matrix (and fleshing out the individual detail thereof) and then manually recreate the SP3 command structure etc.

Andy

[Gurachn]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

Since the "battle" was in actual fact a siege over several months then it really does not fit any sort of single-battle scenario. A campaign would therefore be best (With no or little repair/reinforcement). The campaign could then showcase a few key "active" assault scenarios perhaps.

There is quite simply no sane way to write any form of conversion utility for SP3 to SP1.
- Each hex is 250 metres, not 50. i.e. about 5x5 WinSPMBT hexes per SP3 hex.
- The contour system is totally different (SP3 had just 3 hill levels, we have 15).
- Each unit is potentially a platoon (2-5 elements). So formation structure does not quite marry up.
- SP3 turn time is also about 5 or ten minutes? - so ~ 5 or 10 times the turn allowance.

So all you can do is take notes and then manually create a map making each SP3 map hex a 5x5 WinSPMBT matrix (and fleshing out the individual detail thereof) and then manually recreate the SP3 command structure etc.

Andy

Thanks Andy, totally understand the difficulties in conversion.

My question at this point is if there is any way to extract the maps and data from the SP3 files in order to use use as a model to base the new maps and units on.
That would save a lot of time and effort, if so.

I'm afraid I don't have a copy of SP3 or I would fire that up and grab some screens.

[Mobhack]

From my original post:

There is quite simply no sane way to write any form of conversion utility

It's up to you to do it manually. Multiply the SP3 map size by 5 and create a new map. Plot each SP3 hex into a 5x5 matrix of 50m hexes (you may want to lay out the flat WinSPMBT map in 5x5 grids of alternate colours - using, say long grass and plain).

Andy

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Alternatively, you could get some maps on the area if you want a much more precise one, you can get amazing detail in winSPMBT if you can use the tools at your disposal.
There's this french site about it, there's an interesting read, i'm not sure if all the website was translated into english, i couldn't find any maps though.
http://www.dienbienphu.org/english/index.htm

[RazGator]

I'm looking into doing a DBP scenario or two. Right now, I'm trying to dig up enough tactical info to do something with the March 22 clearing of Route 41 through Ban Kho Lai from Isabelle to the main French position. Meanwhile, here is a good topo map of DBP http://www.rjsmith.com/Dien_Bien_Phu_Cropped.html

[Gurachn]

Originally Posted by RazGator

I'm looking into doing a DBP scenario or two. Right now, I'm trying to dig up enough tactical info to do something with the March 22 clearing of Route 41 through Ban Kho Lai from Isabelle to the main French position. Meanwhile, here is a good topo map of DBP http://www.rjsmith.com/Dien_Bien_Phu_Cropped.html

Hi RazGator,
Thanks for the link.
I actually already have a copy of the topo map that Ray Smith based that one on. Unfortunately it's a USGS map from 1966, and it seems that the terrain in the area, especially the course of the Nam Youn, has changed a fair bit since '54.
In the years after the battle there was a tremendous amount of construction also, so the road lines also are a bit off from where they ran during the battle.
Ray also seems to be a bit out with his placements of some of the firebases.

I've been piecing together a number of maps/photos/diagrams from March-April '54, and attempting to overlay them with this topo and another I have, and am getting pretty close to having a decently detailed and scaled outline of the ground as it stood during the period.
I've even overlayed it with a 50m. hex grid so it should be fairly useful as a basis for making a game map.

Unfortunately I have no experience with making SP maps or scenarios.
Might you be interested in a bit of collaboration?

[Gurachn]

Originally Posted by RazGator

I'm looking into doing a DBP scenario or two. Right now, I'm trying to dig up enough tactical info to do something with the March 22 clearing of Route 41 through Ban Kho Lai from Isabelle to the main French position. Meanwhile, here is a good topo map of DBP http://www.rjsmith.com/Dien_Bien_Phu_Cropped.html

I'm mainly focusing on the Northern and Central firebases at the moment, but I have done a bit of work on the area down towards Isabelle (see sample)


If you like I could send you a copy of the area between Isabelle and Claudine.

-G

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Have just started following this thread and I hope it gets main streamed into the game, unless I missed something and it's already available in the game? But if I may take the liberty to recommend a couple of excellent books on the topic. Both written by Frenchman one who would die in South Vietnam and the next served as an officer in the French Army two years after the battle. When published in 1966 it's purported that this book gave Pres. Johnson pause about our involvement in Vietnam.

1. Hell in a Very Small Place: The Siege of DIEN BIEN PHU by BERNARD B. FALL Pub. 1966. He was killed by a booby trap in Feb. 1967 in South Vietnam.

2. Valley of Death: The Tragedy at DIEN BIEN PHU that led America into the Vietnam War by Pulitzer Prize winning author TED MORGAN Pub. 2010. Extensively uses recently declassified documents from all involved.

Basically I subscribe to know your enemy just asked how that worked out for Lt.Gen. Harold G. Moore(Ret.) at Ia Drang, who it's well known studied this battle in depth as well as the French involvement in Indochina. I believe he even read Dr. Falls "Streets of Joy" that covers Frances overall involvement.

Thanks for the time, I really like the idea of all this for what's it worth.

Regards,
Pat