Mod: Adept's Mod (weapon, magic and monster changes)

[Adept]

Originally Posted by kianduatha

By the way, your example Skratti is wearing 40+ gems of gear and supported with extra casters. I would hope that it would take at least a handful of mages to take him down. Looks like orb lightning or just plain some fireballs would fatigue him out and then make short work of him. But none of that matters because he has an army with--you can just cut off retreat routes and rout the surrounding army without even having to take him out. He's only a problem if you don't expend somewhat comparable amounts of resources taking care of him.

Supported by a 55 gold-recruit-anywhere vaetti hag doesn't exactly rate the comment of being supported by "extra casters". They become fearsomely powerful with construction lvl 2 items, and you can create more at will. You can have these guys out really early in the game, and only a few nations have credible magic options for countering them. They are so good that in most cases it's much better for the Jotun player to focus on the mage werewolves than spending his gold in recruiting an army of giants. Granted taking out the forging bonuses makes spamming such SCs harder, but you don't need many to roll over somebody in early game. One pretty much needs tartarians and very good magic items to match recruitable SCs Jotunheim can have out in _early_ game. No thanks.

[Squirrelloid]

Adept, I don't think you understand the purpose of a *balance* mod.

Call it a historicity mod if you must. I don't care to argue about the metallurgy or whatever. But the only 'changes' you've made that have anything to do with *balance* are ones CBM already made.

[Adept]

Updated to version 1.01

Try to be a little less insulting Squirrellord. This forum used to be such a polite and grown up place. You even manage to use the word changes in a "sarcastic" manner. What you claim above is simply not true.

a) There is a lot of weapon balance that CBM doesn't do put in here. Check out the effects of the War Spear for one.

b) CBM, at least when I last looked didn't categorically remove forging or gem creation items, nor does it remove forge of the ancients.

c) CBM doesn't fix the problem of Lord of the Hunt or the Furies being neutralised by picking up items in combat.

***

Many of the changes and fixes I've done change the game's balance point. It may not be a change you agree with (though I seriously doubt you've had time to test it). but it does effect the balance addressing things that consern me.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Adept

Updated to version 1.01

Try to be a little less insulting Squirrellord. This forum used to be such a polite and grown up place. You even manage to use the word changes in a "sarcastic" manner. What you claim above is simply not true.

a) There is a lot of weapon balance that CBM doesn't do put in here. Check out the effects of the War Spear for one.

Which has nothing to do with balance. CBM alters the units directly because it preseves the weapons as distinct options with their own advantages and disadvantages, and tries to make sure the *units* using them are balanced. (To the extent it succeeds or fails is not the point, its targeting the right thing to balance).

If your efforts are anything to go by, you've homogenized jomon to the point that differences in weapon are totally meaningless. That's boring, and its not balance in any real way, and it certainly doesn't give jomon any interesting choices (this is still a game).

b) CBM, at least when I last looked didn't categorically remove forging or gem creation items, nor does it remove forge of the ancients.

Forging and gem creation items are made artifacts in CBM, since 1.7 and 1.6 respectively.

Forge of the Ancients doesn't need to be removed. Its a Const 9 (in CBM) global spell whose purpose (like a number of other level 9 globals) is to break stalemates.

c) CBM doesn't fix the problem of Lord of the Hunt or the Furies being neutralised by picking up items in combat.

Which doesn't actually make them more useful or balanced, since they're really bad spells even if they don't pick anything up.

On the flip side, if they managed to pick up any good items, they would have been more dangerous. (Not likely that they'll kill anything carrying *an* item in teh first place, but as long as we're playing what if).

So you didn't actually improve their balance, but you might have decreased their variance a little bit.

Many of the changes and fixes I've done change the game's balance point. It may not be a change you agree with (though I seriously doubt you've had time to test it). but it does effect the balance addressing things that consern me.

You don't have a vision for the game's balance point. You don't even seem to know what the game's balance point currently is, since you seem hell-bent on nerfing a weak nation into the ground, which is hardly a balance-oriented change.

Hint: if you're making changes for a reason other than balance, you're probably not making a change that improves balance.

A balance mod needs to boost nations and spells that are underperforming and rein in those that are overperforming. Your obsession with Jomon is hilariously misplaced, and I'm not actually convinced they're playable in your mod.

I really need to ask: How much MP experience do you have? Because you can beat the AI by doing horribly inept things, so 'it works against the AI' is not a test of balance. To have any clue about balance in this game you need to routinely play against the best players in the game.

[Adept]

[quote=Squirrelloid;785194]

Originally Posted by Adept

Updated to version 1.01
Which has nothing to do with balance. CBM alters the units directly because it preseves the weapons as distinct options with their own advantages and disadvantages, and tries to make sure the *units* using them are balanced. (To the extent it succeeds or fails is not the point, its targeting the right thing to balance).

If your efforts are anything to go by, you've homogenized jomon to the point that differences in weapon are totally meaningless. That's boring, and its not balance in any real way, and it certainly doesn't give jomon any interesting choices (this is still a game).

I feel like I'm feeding a troll, so this is probably my last reply to you. You are being massively impolite.

You seem to have an issue with using the word balance in the name of the mod. This is a linguistic fixation. My mod is it's own thing, not a rival to anybody elses work. I am familiar with the CBM, but I do not like the approach personally.

Your comment about Jomon is just dickery. If you want to be qualified to make such comments, you need to try it out.

Forge of the Ancients doesn't need to be removed. Its a Const 9 (in CBM) global spell whose purpose (like a number of other level 9 globals) is to break stalemates.

This is your opinion and preference. You are entitled to it, but it doesn't make it the only right one. I'd go into detail on what is wrong with the FotA in detail, but I have no interest in further "discussion" with you.

Your comments on the Furies and Lord of the Hunt don't merit a comment.

Your obsession with Jomon is hilariously misplaced, and I'm not actually convinced they're playable in your mod.

Like I said originally, I fully intend to play Jomon in the next multiplayer game of my group under this mod, unless somebody else insists on having it.

I really need to ask: How much MP experience do you have? Because you can beat the AI by doing horribly inept things, so 'it works against the AI' is not a test of balance. To have any clue about balance in this game you need to routinely play against the best players in the game.

This form a grashopper who has joined these forums in 2009. The arrogance and personal attacks probably give me a pretty good clue about your age.

I've played the dominions games since the original game out, and been a member of these boards since 2003. I could have called the mod anything. Your obsession with the name doesn't do you any favours.

#description "Fixes weapon oddities, addresses unbalancing magic items, global spells and broken summoned creatures."

Here's a hint about language for you young grasshopper. Balance can refer to the balance between weapons, balance between magic items... anything like that. You seem to think it is automatically about balance between nations. Dominions is complex enough that a fine balance between all the nations is impossible. Mostly one can aim for consistent pricing of skill.

For me the feeling of verisimilitude and realism is important. Jomon has a significant and historically accurate weakness in not using shields. It doesn't mean they need super weapons or boosted skills to counter that, it means it's a challenging nation which needs creative tactics and use of it's summons and indies in the war of the gods. This is a good thing.

If you have anything further to say, learn some manners. Othervise just go away.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Adept

This from a grashopper who has joined these forums in 2009. The arrogance and personal attacks probably give me a pretty good clue about your age.

I've played the dominions games since the original game out, and been a member of these boards since 2003. I could have called the mod anything. Your obsession with the name doesn't do you any favours.

I have made no personal attacks. My comments are almost wholly directed at the mod. I have no opinion on you as a person. If you can't separate yourself from things created by yourself, that's your problem and not mine.

I did challenge your authority to know what balance was. Since a balance mod implicitly makes a claim to authority ("I know what balance is, because i'm writing a mod to 'fix' it"), its a relevant challenge.

How long you've played the game isn't very relevant. There are people who have only ever played SP yet played since it first came out. Expertise is something that needs to be worked at, it doesn't automatically come from doing an activity haphazardly for a long time. Gandalf, who did beta testing of dom3, can't even get the mechanics right. Gandalf has done a lot for the community (such as run a server which hosts direct-connect games), but I wouldn't use a *balance mod* written by him. (Its my impression he has no interest in balance mods, so there's no problem there).

I'd be happy to compare:
(1) Number of MP games played
(2) Quality of opponents
(3) Mechanics knowledge
(4) Significant MP game wins (>= 6 players)

ie, real measures of experience and skill.

And finally, words have meaning. When you use the term 'balance mod', people expect certain things. Being surprised when they call the mod on it not improving gameplay balance at all is disingenious. Yes, maybe i'm hung up on teh word. I looked at this thread *expecting* a balance mod. I didn't find one.

[Adept]

Also consider that I have not done any work on this mod to specifically please you squirrellord, nor do I require your approval. I only post it here incase others are interested in trying it out. The mod has been created for my multiplayer groups continued enjoyment of this fine game.

Now returning to our regular mod discussion, hopefully.

[Adept]

Here is an example of how the Skratti werewolf thug is far form extinct despite not having weapon or helmet slots.

I'm sure you all know how to do this. All you need is enough vaetti hags (which you'll want anyway for cheap researchers) to score one or two with astral. Then You need to rush Alteration 4 for Quicken Self, Body Ethereal and Luck. Since the Hag fits in the same square as the giant werewolf after two rounds of buffing your totally unequipped early game überthug looks like this:


(in the picture 2 of them are tearing apart experienced heavy cavalry).

In the other picture you see the rest of the indie lvl 9 defenders. As can be expected in the battle nobody lands a single hit on the werewolves.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Adept

Here is an example of how the Skratti werewolf thug is far form extinct despite not having weapon or helmet slots.

I'm sure you all know how to do this. All you need is enough vaetti hags (which you'll want anyway for cheap researchers) to score one or two with astral. Then You need to rush Alteration 4 for Quicken Self, Body Ethereal and Luck. Since the Hag fits in the same square as the giant werewolf after two rounds of buffing your totally unequipped early game überthug looks like this:


(in the picture 2 of them are tearing apart experienced heavy cavalry).

In the other picture you see the rest of the indie lvl 9 defenders. As can be expected in the battle nobody lands a single hit on the werewolves.

Why are we using indies as a measure of balance? Especially indies vs. *4 turns of mage recruitment* which requires two 1/4 hags (so we're looking at 18 turns of recruitment time on average to even see that), by which point there aren't going to be any indies? (Ok, your second fort coming online is going to speed that up, maybe, but indies are mostly gone by turn 12, you'll be lucky to have this ready to go before then).

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Adept

I'm sure you all know how to do this. All you need is enough vaetti hags (which you'll want anyway for cheap researchers) to score one or two with astral.

Also needed to sitesearch, sneaky protect vs mind hunts (blood hunters for example), and forging. You also want 2 so you can let the one run away, and the other to sneak into your next target province (or waste another turn).

(in the picture 2 of them are tearing apart experienced heavy cavalry).

So you use 4 mages against heavy cav? most of the cav should die then. Try a rematch against more cav, 20 for example. It does not really have critical mass here. (I did some tests myself, with only one skrattir with luck and eth, it didn't go that well. The long combat resulted in fatigue, the massed attacks overcame the eth+luck. Crits -> afflictions -> meant the end of the wolf).

Also, as soon as you hit research lvl 4 there will usually not be any indies left. Then you start to face the real enemies, the other players. (And your tactic of rushing to alt 4 means one problem. If a bless nation rushes you. You do not have a good magical counter. Only numbness. (After getting alt 2 (quickness!), I would either get con 4 for some serious magical items on the skrattir thugs (wha.. no hands!) or falling frost. Depending on the other nations I expect to face.

And other players have good troops. Attack 16 might not even be enough to dent the enemy troops reliably. Lets say marignon royal guards for example. defense 19, recruitable everywhere.