Czech OOB 5.5

Pibwl · #1 October 16th, 2011, 08:13 PM

Helicopters

114 Mi-4 - standard armament of military Mi-4 was 12.7mm TKB-481 (aka A-12,7) MG (I suggest to arm it with #226 MG, renamed to "12.7mm TKB MG" - according to further suggestions, Mi-4 will be the only unit to use weapon #226). Used from 6/56 (now: 1/56, it would need formations' change as the earliest unit) (http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mi-4.htm).

115 Mi-4C - according to a Polish article and Czech page http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mi-4.htm , it was Czech modification named actually Mi-4B. It was armed with 64 (4x16) S-5K rockets, so it needs double number of rockets or upgrade to 4x57mm S-5K (eg. weapon #185 from Russian oob). (Seems from this page however, that the mounting wasn't much successful, and it isn't sure if armament was actually used). It also should be armed with a standard 12.7 MG (as above). According to a photo on that page, also 16 x 130 mm rockets were tested or used later (not Soviet S-13, but own design), but there is no closer info.

BTW: IMO more proportional value for 4x57mm S-5K would be kill=11 (now 2x57mm has kill 8, 4x57mm - 10 and 8x57mm - 15).

116 BRDM-2b - ordinary BRDM-2 wasn't actually used in CS - see unit #53

117 Mi-171Sh - better name is Mi-171S (Czech letter S with "v"). Used from 7/05 (http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mil2/mi-171s.htm ). Gun armament should be reduced IMO to one MG, because there are two in side doors and one in a rear ramp, so one target can be usually engaged with only one MG. MGs are vz.59, by the way (http://www.army.cz/avis/areport2005/ar17str.pdf )
There can be also variant with 6x32 57mm S-5K rockets or 6x20 80mm rockets (maybe replacing #119 unit)

118 Mi-8 - precisely, Mi-8T. It carried 64 (4x16) S-5K rockets, so their number should be doubled or they could be upgraded to 4x57mm S-5K. According to http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mi-8.htm first ones were delivered in late 1967 (now 1/67) and used well after 1986, but later photos on this page don't show hardpoints. Probably they were disarmed in 1991, like Mi-17 (see #120), so probable ending date of armed variant should be 12/91.

119 Mi-8TB - there's no sign that such gunship variant was ever used in Czechoslovakia and it's very doubtful. A detailed page on the Czech Mi-8 quoted above don't mention it. To be removed (or changed to rocket-armed Mi-171S - see #117)

120 Mi-17 - most probably they didn't carry nose MG. It could carry at least 6x16 rockets (maximum 6x32), so it could be fitted with third weapon #190 with 12+4 shots and they even all could be upgraded to 4x57mm S-5K. According to http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mil/mi-17.htm they were disarmed starting from 1991, due to interpretation of CFE Treaty (including removal of electric wiring). Photos on this page don't confirm presence of a machine gun nor its mounting in a nose.

121 Mi-8 / Falanga - no sign it was ever used in CS - see unit #119. It could be changed to normal unarmed Mi-8T, used from late 67 until some 2015(?)

122 W-3A Sokol - used since 10/96 (now: 1/96).

123 Mi-17 - used since 10/84 probably until 120 (http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mil/mi-17.htm )

124 Mi-24 / Falanga - proper name is Mi-24D. Delivered in 24.8.78 (now: 1/78) and used until 2003 (now: 12/91)(http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mil/mi-24.htm ). Standard armament of Mi-24 was 128 (4x32) S-5K rockets (in addition to missiles), so they should be upgraded to double number of 4x57mm S-5K or to 8x57mm S-5K (weapon #186 from Russian oob). Gun's name spelling in Czech is JaKB. Cooler icon (and fit to actual camo) is 3484.

125 Mi-24 / Kokon - proper name is Mi-24V. Delivered only in late 12/85 (now: 1/85) (http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mil/mi-24.htm ). Rocket armament and icon - as above.

126 Mi-24 / Kokon - name, rockets, icon - as above.

...

550 Mi-1 - max speed was 185km/h (61, now: 76) - it concerns all countries.

There was also a variant Mi-1AKR for artillery spotting from 1962.

551 Fa-223 - currently has no radio value. It was only one or two units.

Proposed unit: light helicopter VR-2 (HC-2) (http://www.vrtulnik.cz/hc-2.htm ). Data, icon and picture (as for now) may be similar to OH-23 Raven, but crew=1, carry=1, speed=42 (126 km/h), used from 1956 (there were army trials of the prototype from 1956, small series went to army in 1960) until some 1963. (Needs date change in formation #39)

...

902 Mi-17 - most probably they didn't carry MG. See #120.

903 Mi-24 Hind E - correct name is Mi-24V. I can't see a reason to create rocket-only armed variations of unit #125, since Mi-24 could carry 4 missiles and 128 rockets 57 mm at a time as a standard. Anyway, used from 1/86 (see #125), correct icon=3484 or 3485 (now it's Mi-24A).

904 Mi-24 Hind D - correct name is Mi-24D. As above, I can't see a reason to create rocket-only armed variations of unit #124, since Mi-24 could carry 4 missiles and 128 rockets 57 mm at a time as a standard. Used from 8/78 (see #124).

905 Mi-24 Hind E - icon, name, date as #903. Apart from 80 mm rockets, it can carry also 4 x 9M114 Sturm missiles (see #125).

906 Mi-24 Hind D - name, date as #904. I have no specific information, but it seems, that 80 mm rockets were used only from the 1980s. Apart from 80 mm rockets, it can carry also 4 Falanga AT missiles (see #124).

907 Mi-24 Hind E - icon, name as #903. It can carry up to 16 x 122 mm rockets (4x4) and also 4 x 9M114 Sturm missiles (see #125). The rocket's designation is LR-122 (modified BM-21 Grad rocket - http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/22273 ). These rockets were first tested in 6/89 (now: 1/85) (http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mil/grady.htm ). A photo with 8x122 mm and 64x57mm: http://www.acr.army.cz/images/id_5001_6000/5063/02.jpg

908 Mi-24 Hind D - name Mi-24D. As for rockets and first date - see above.

909 Mi-24 Hind E - I haven't found any information if there ever existed guided 57 mm rockets (which seem to small for guidance and are generally considered too small to be effective) - and if they are used by the Czech Republic.

910, 911 Mi-24 Hind E - name, icon as #903. I haven't found any information if there are used guided rockets in the Czech Republic. It should be verified.

Pibwl · #2 October 19th, 2011, 07:55 PM

Aircraft

Most info concerning aircraft 1946-50 is taken from a Czech article in (Polish) Lotnictwo Wojskowe magazine.

General note: in many cases (not only aircraft), price of units should change, if armament changes are applied, but I generally don't deal with prices.

127 Yak-9B - Czechoslovakia didn't use Yak fighters at all (with exception of Yak-23).

It can be replaced with Spitfire LF.IXE - eg. French #162, used in 1/46 - 12/48, armed with 2x20 mm, 2x12.7mm and two bombs 100 kg (I don't think, that they bought 113 kg (250pdr) bombs. Maybe they could be used with one German or Soviet 250 kg? - my guess). Icon 514 is OK, without signs.

128 La-5N - proper name La-5FN, used until 1948. But it's better to rename it La-7, with the same stats - used in bigger number and until 1950 (now: 12/54). Picture and icon are OK. According to Russian sources, both could only take 2 x 100 kg bombs, not 4 x 125 (I have no information on bombs, but 125 kg was not typical in German/Soviet inventory which Czechoslovakia might have used and this weapon should be rather changed to standard 100 kg).

129 Avia S-99 - not numerous unit (radio=1), used from some mid-46 until some 1953 (now: 1/46-12/54). "Avia" could be omitted, since they were Bf 109, only assembled and restored in Avia.

130 S-92 (Me-262) - withdrawn from service already in 1951 (now: 12/59 - hard to imagine how to keep operating ex-German WWII jets so long). It could be available earlier (now 1/49) - there were several available in 1948, although they were used for experiments and training and only in 10/50 there was created the first jet fighter unit. Size should be rather 4.

131 S-102 (Mig-15) - first delivered in 6/51 (now: 1/51).

132 MiG-17F - MiG-17 didn't carry obsolete RS-82 rockets, and moreover, CS used only two MiG-17F (http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10547.html ). I suggest to change it to an interesting Czech attack variant MiG-15SB (see http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10543.html ). Data and guns like MiG-15 (above), but speed = rather 10 due to increased weight. Used from 1959 until 1983, armed in following variants:
- 40 rockets 55 mm LR-55 (Czech design, probably equivalent to Soviet 57 mm S-5 with HE warhead)
- 4 rockets 130 mm LR-130 (Czech design, HEAT warhead, probably similar to Western 5in rockets)
- 4 bombs 100 kg (6 without fuel tanks)
- 2 cluster bombs RBK-250 (#199, I don't know, if anti-personel or anti-tank and don't know since when)
In addition to rockets it could take 2 x 100 kg bombs, if without fuel tanks.

(BTW: I don't know why MiG-15 and MiG-17 have in the game different ammo loads: 4 vs 6 x 37 mm and 8 vs 9 x 23 mm, while they both had 40 rounds 37 mm and 80 rounds 23 mm)

133 MiG-17F - see above - I suggest to change it to MiG-15SB armed with same guns and 4-6 bombs 100 kg (see above).

134 MiG-17PF - MiG-17PF didn't carry obsolete RS-82 rockets. I suggest to remove this unit (or change to MiG-15 SB).

135 MiG-17PF - it should have the same ammo load for 23 mm guns, as MiG-15 and 17F, which have 8 or 9 shots (it has 6). Speed could be 12 - max 1123km/h.

136 Il-10 Sturmovik - name could be changed to B-33 or Avia B-33 (technically, Avia was a proper name for licensed production B-33 since 1952, but Avias constituted a great majority). According to a Russian book on Il-10 [Aviakollektsya 5/2004], used from 8/50 until 1960 (now there is 1/50-12/58). It could take only 4 rockets (now it has 2x4) [same source].

137 Il-28 - delivered only in 1955 (now: 1/53), withdrawn from bomber units in 1965 (now: 12/71) - until 1973 they served for reconnaissance. In 1960 fixed guns were dismounted in Czechoslovakia, though [source Aviakollektsya 6/2006]. So there could be another unit in 1960-65, without guns (as a level bomber?). I'm not sure, if it should be fighter-bomber class at all - in Soviet oob they are only level bombers or COIN, and were rather not fit to strafing. As a level bomber, it would need new formation.

138 MiG-21PF - PF used from 8/64 (now there's 1/66) (http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10769.html ).

139, 140 S-105 - Czechoslovakia used S-105 (licence MiG-19) from 1958 (now there's 1967!) [Source: MiG-19 In action]. Armament of unit #140 seems OK, though typical for MiG-19 was 8-rocket 57 mm launchers on only two pods (and two tanks or bombs).

141 MiG-21PFM - RS-2US was AA only missile, so it must be an error. It could use unguided S-24 240 mm missiles instead (weapon #176 240mm S-24 Rkt).

(Note: RS-2US was only experimentally used against ground targets by the Russians, in a process of development of Ch-66 missile, but it had only 13-kg warhead and couldn't do much harm, with low precision. Anyway, it should be removed - unless somebody finds a source, that the Czechs meant to use it against ground. A special air-to-ground missile Ch-66 (Kh-66, AS-7) was developed for MiG-21PF, but I have no confirmation, that the Czechs had them (basically an earlier version of Ch-23 Kerry). Maybe it's meant to be this missile? Data for Ch-66: HE/HEAT warhead 103 kg including 51 kg of explosive (Ch-25 has warhead 108 kg, RS-2 has 13 kg), max range 8 km, accuracy 40 seems ok. It was commissioned in the USSR in 1968, so earliest possible date of export seems some 1969).

142, 143 MiG-21M, MF - armament of these aircraft should be in fact swapped (or names and everything else should be swapped, leaving armament). According to Czech page http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10769.html, version M (also known locally as MA) could carry up to 4x 250 kg bombs, "Theoretically 2x 500 kg could be carried after strengthening of wings". Version MF could carry 500 kg bombs without problems.

There could be also variant of M with 64 (4x16) 57mm S-5 rockets. There is also mention on parachute bombs on the page. Apart from latest times, they were just silver (icon 2757)

144 L-29 - better name is L-29 Delfin. Correct picture is 23032 (currently it is Hawk). 2 x 16 rockets is probably twice too much - it had two hardpoints up to 100 kg (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/6443 ), while loaded launcher for 16 rockets weighted around 138 kg. Contrary to some Western designs, it wasn't meant an attack aircraft, just a trainer. More appropriate is silver icon 1106.

145 Yak-23 - Czech spelling is Jak-23 (it also carried designation S-101). According to this Russian page http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/yak23.html they were delivered only in the end of 1950 and used until 1956 (now: 1/49-12/51). According to article on the Czech post-war aviation, only in October 1950 there was created the first jet fighter unit, so it's the earliest date anyway.

DRG · #3 October 20th, 2011, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Aircraft

General note: in many cases (not only aircraft), price of units should change, if armament changes are applied, but I generally don't deal with prices.

So I assume then you had no idea every OOB is run through a cost calculator program before release and that automatically adjusts the cost of a unit based on a universal formula ? It's in the OOB folder.

Also, do all these date availability adjustments take into account there cannot be date gaps in the units used in a formation so if I made these changes I'm not going to find out I suddenly have a 2 year gap someplace ?

Don

Pibwl · #4 October 20th, 2011, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG

So I assume then you had no idea every OOB is run through a cost calculator program before release and that automatically adjusts the cost of a unit based on a universal formula ? It's in the OOB folder.

You're right - I had no idea. That's why I'm not messing with costs

As for formations, in most cases I've indicated problems. I usually check formations in cases of earliest/last unit. Frankly, I haven't checked formation for "fighter-bombers", assuming, that all period is covered anyway. But as for "level bombers", I've indicated need for new formation for Il-28. I'll also deal in detail with infantry formations later (with APCs and stuff).

As for Yak/Jak-23 - of course, you hold the key. I'm only suggesting changes which might or might not be applied, it's up to your decision. I'm only trying to provide as much info on real thing, as possible. By the way, "Jak" is also Polish, German, Hungarian, Finnish, Croatian, Dutch (OK, they had no Yaks) spelling.

Regards,
Michal

Pibwl · #5 October 22nd, 2011, 08:11 PM

Maybe I'll finish the aircraft, since I have them almost ready...

149 Su-7B - name should be Su-7BM (Czechoslovakia used only BM and later BKL, B was a Soviet variant). They were acquired only in early 1964 (practical date some 6/64, now there's 1/61). It could carry 4 bombs 500 kg (without fuel tanks - now it has 2). Used until late 1980s (now 12/81). [detailed info in an article on Su-7s in Polish Nowa Technika Wojskowa from 1997]

150 Su-7B - should be renamed Su-7BM or BKL. Used until late 1980s. In addition to 2 x RBK-500 it could additionally carry 2-4 x 250 kg bombs or 4x16 rockets 57mm S-5 (two weapons #185 with 8 shots) (- depicts six-hardpoint variant).

153 and others Su-22M-4 - usually written in sources Su-22M4.

154 Su-22 - should be Su-22M4 - Czechoslovakia used only this single-seater version, from 1984 (now: 1/81). In addition to 2 Kh-25 Karen it can take at least 64 or even 128 rockets 57mm S-5 (2-4 x32) - now it has only 32. Small launchers for 16 rockets practically weren't even seen with Su-22. Or it can take 4x Kh-25 (and 64 rockets) - such combinations appear on photos. I suppose, that this armament should be used until 10/02, like the others (now: 12/93)

155 Su-22M-4 - in addition to 2 Kh-29 Kedge it can take at least 2x500 kg bombs or 64 rockets 57mm S-5 or 40 rockets 80mm S-8.

157 Pe-2 - full name of this version Pe-2FT. Delivered in 5/46 (now there's 1/46), withdrawn already in 1951 (now: 54). Both dates demand change in formation #152. I don't know however, if its class "level bomber" is right, since they were in fact dive bombers (if it's changed, than the formation might serve for Il-28s, which were rather "level beombers").

158 Avia B-33 - there's no use for this unit, since #136 Il-10 (which was also designated B-33) is identical. Anyway, it could take only 4 rockets (now it has 2x2x2). Used until 1960.

There should be also variant of B-33 with 4 new more potent LR-130 rockets (see notes for unit #132) and 2 bombs 100 kg or with rockets and cluster HE or AT bomblets (carried in bomb bays).

161 Il-2M3 - used only until 1950 due to fatigue (now: 12/52). If it was armed with rockets, additional 2x 100 kg bombs were more probable (2x250 kg would be overload, especially considering fatigue of wartime aircraft).

There could be created another unit with 2x250kg bombs only.

163 130mm M-51 MRL - used at least from 1956, possibly even earlier (http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/1...30mm-raketomet ) (now: 1/61).

164 BM-13 Katyusha - no mention on the Czech pages, that they were ever used.

166 MiG-29 - MiG-29s at that time couldn't carry air-to-ground missiles (only later MiG-29M export proposals). Especially, that Kh-29 needs laser station - in CS inventory they were used with Su-22 only. MiG-29 could carry 4 x 500 kg bombs. I don't know if they were operational until the end, but the Czech MiG-29s were given to Poland only in 1996, so ending date could be 12/95 (now: 12/94)

170 S-106 - better name is just MiG-21F-13 - in late 1950s the Czechs abandoned local names of fighters, and as page http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10769.html indicates, S-106 designation isn't used in practice. According to http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10856.html they were used operationally from 11/63 (now: 1/62). In 1962 only few were delivered for training.

There was also version with 2 rockets 240 mm S-24 (I suggested to convert #141 unit this way).

We might consider changing names from S-102 to MiG-15 S-102, S-103 to MiG-15bis S-103, S-105 to MiG-19 S-105.

...
182 MiG-19PM - RS-2U was AA-only missile - see notes for units #141 (if we change it to Ch-66 missile, it was used only on Mig-21PF). To be removed IMO.

183 MiG-21MFN - according to http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10769.html , standard MiG-21M (MA) delivered in 1969, could carry 4 rockets 240 mm. It's not clear, why unit with such old rockets should be available from 1/99.

Proposed aircraft: according to http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10868.html MiG-23BN could take up to 6 x 500 kg or 8 x 250 kg bombs.

If you are interested in further suggestions concerning the Czech OOB, let me know.

Regards
Michal

DRG · #6 October 20th, 2011, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Aircraft

145 Yak-23 - Czech spelling is Jak-23 (it also carried designation S-101).

Yeah that's great. See Andy's recent reply on this subject on another post on this forum. So when I need to look for all Yak-23's in a game that contains 35,666 units I need to remember that the Czechs are special and call it Jak ? This is exactly how we get reports like..." Why is it all the Yak-ZZs are XX but the Czech Jak ( or S-101 )that is the same aircraft is YY "

We appreciate the info on the units. Please also appreciate we will be making changes to the game based on our own needs to deal with the ever increasing size of the database.

Don