Czech OOB 5.5

Pibwl · #1 December 23rd, 2011, 06:51 PM

As for ZiL-485 BAV - #185 from Russian oob, with corrections like: no fixed armament, max sped 65 km/h on land, 10 km/h on water, picture 29202 (usually DUKW is used at the moment), carry=some 125 (it could carry guns or jeeps).

Artillery

I've omitted it so far. I only wanted to correct pictures first, but when I started to dig... It took me several hours.

Apart from a quoted inventory http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 , informations below are based on a series of pages devoted to artillery of Czechoslovak army in different periods:
[1] http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3105
[2] http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3156
[3] http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3357
[4] http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3025

91 122mm Field Gun - vz.38 (obr38, M-30) howitzer was used at least until 1981 (now 12/76) [link 4]

92 122mm Field Gun (D-30) - link 4 says, that D-30 replaced vz.38 howitzers from 1981. Lack of this gun on a table: http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...901&fullsize=1 presenting equipment until 1980 strongly suggests, that it wasn't used before 1981 (now: 1/69)

96 130mm M46 FG - one brigade was rearmed with these guns in 1976 (now 1/91) (I'm repeating it here for a sake of completeness)

171 76mm Platoon - extinct by 1968 (now 12/75) - table http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...084&fullsize=1

172 85mm Platoon - correct pic is 25009 (M52 gun)

173 122mm Platoon (obr38) - used until 1981 - see #91

174 122mm Platoon (D-30) - used from 1981 - see #92

175 130mm Platoon - used from 1976 (now 1/91) - like #96 unit

176 122mm Gun Pl (M.31/37) - correct pic is 41091. According to link 2, there were none in May 1951. There's no date of first appearance given, only that in bigger numbers it appeared from 1955 (now: 1/50)

177 152mm Platoon - D-20 howitzers weren't used in Czechoslovakia - there's no sign of them on any of these pages.

Should be changed to basic Czech 152 mm FH from 1950 until 1980s at least - weapon #113 152mm M18/46 FH (vz.18/47, German 150 mm sFH-18 converted to Soviet ammo). Similar pic is 23077 (original sFH-18) (earlier entry before 1950 is unit #498)

179 105 mm Platoon (vz.18/40, German leFH-18) - correct pic is 23500. According to table http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...084&fullsize=1 extinct between 1960 and 1968 (now: 12/96)

180 122mm Platoon - D-74 long range guns weren't used in Czechoslovakia - no sign on quoted pages.

498 152mm Battery (vz.18/47) - more proper pic is 23077 (original sFH-18 howitzer).

500 76mm Battery - weapons should be just popular #122 76.2mm ZiS-3 FG, like unit 171 (weapon 241 is Soviet prewar F-22 gun with long barrel, not used in CS, especially post war)

502 152mm Battery - there's no sign on quoted pages, that Czechoslovakia used Soviet D-1 howitzers. Might be replaced with German 150 mm vz.18N (sFH-18) (used until late 1950s.) - eg. Bulgarian unit #343 (range of Bulgarian weapon #242 and Portugal #115 is probably overstated - 212, while it was only 13.2 km and it should be IMO 203 - more on this subject below)

(If you decide to leave it, correct pic for D-1 howitzer is 29402 - BTW, mine)

503 122mm Gun Bty (vz.31/37 FG) - according to link 2, there were none before 1951 - in bigger numbers they appeared only from 1955. So it should be deleted - after 1950 we have unit #176. BTW, correct pic is 41091.

It might be replaced with German vz.18N (sK-18), used in small number until 1950s - eg. Bulgarian unit #343, but range should be 19-21 km depending on version (209-211?)

505 122mm 2S1 Pl - first 4 were used since 1976 (now 1/78), but in bigger number from 1980s.

506 152mm Dana Pl - according to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/12305 , introduced in 1980 (now 1/77)

Weapons

First I didn't mean to check them, but it appeared in connection with guns - then I started to check ranges...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from gun ranges in the Czech oob it seems, that O/M gun game range = approximate range in km + 190 (13 km for ZiS-3 is 203, 17 km for ML-20 = 207, 27 km for M-46 = 217 etc).

But in Portugal and Bulgarian oob it apparently doesn't fit (I didn't check others): 25pdr (12 km) = 208 (should be 202?), sFH-18 (to be taken for the Czech oob - 13 km) = 212 (should be 203?). In Bulgarian oob #240 105mm leFH-18 (12 km) has 207 (should be 202 - like #191 in Czech oob) and #241 105mm K18 FG (18-21 km) - also 207... If there is really a "+190" rule, I can check more guns in several other oobs.

Back to the Czech weapons:

#112 122mm obr38 FH has too long range 209 - in Russian oob #112 122mm M-30 FH has 202 (same weapon, real range was 11.8 km). Maybe designation should be changed to Czech vz.38S, M38 or international M-30 ("obr" was Soviet abbreviation)?

#113 152mm M18/46 FH - name should be M18/47 in fact, and range was 15.2 km - 205 (now 202) - http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/674

#191 105mm M18/49 - name should be M18/40 (if it's German LeFH-18/40) - it's also worth to add "FH"

#220 122mm M1937 FH - name should be M31/37 FG (Soviet field gun obr.31/37 A-19)

#230 85mm M52 FG - too long range 209 - in fact 16,200 m - 206? (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/...itankovy-kanon )

#239 152mm ML20 FG - maybe ML-20 GH? (gun-howitzer according to original nomenclature)

Weapons #95 122mm D-74 FG, #240 152mm D-1 FH, #241 76mm L51 obr36 might be replaced with new ones.

That's all as for artillery, I guess.

Regards
Michal

Pibwl · #2 December 24th, 2011, 07:39 AM

Supplement:

Weapon 111 152mm D-20 FH - should be changed to 152mm M77 FH used in Dana SP-howitzer. Range is 18.7 km (209?), with base bleed rounds - 20 km (210?).

By the way, I don't know if basic D-20 FH in other oobs should have range 214 - its normal range is 17.4 km, and 24 km only with rocket assisted(?) rounds.

Miscellaneous weapon comments:

06, 07, 08 - correct form is "vz.", not "vz/"

028 RPG-75 - range against moving target is 200 m, but against still target - 300 m (now: 4) http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/21864 (I don't know if it should be changed, just for information).

053 7.62 SGMT AAMG - proper designation of AAMG variant was SGMB (for all countries)

218 7.62mm vz59 MMG - is kill 7 justified, higher than water-cooled Maxim (5), SG-43 (6) and PKS from Soviet oob (6)?

BTW: shouldn't Maxim have higher kill ratio than other MGs, since it was able of sustained fire for longer time? Same for Vickers HMG in the British oob (5). As I see, Maxim and Vickers differ from other MMGs in having a longer range (30 vs 24), but is it correct, with the same ammunition? Or is it a matter of heavy mounts? Just a few thoughts...

Regards
Michal

DRG · #3 December 27th, 2011, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

#112 122mm obr38 FH has too long range 209 - in Russian oob #112 122mm M-30 FH has 202 (same weapon, real range was 11.8 km). Maybe designation should be changed to Czech vz.38S, M38 or international M-30 ("obr" was Soviet abbreviation)?

The REASON things like this get screwed up is every other M-30 in the game is named "M-30" or "M30" and all of those have the standard 202 range that the Russian one does.

BUT OF COURSE the Czech one was named differently which is why it was missed when the others were standardized so naming them anything other than the standard M-30 would assure they would be missed again ....yes ?.....which is why they are now named M-30 and they now have the correct range and why NONE of the "suggestions" to rename weapons etc. to suit specific nations is going to happen.

MOBHack help has a complete list of arty ranges and their conversion number BUT OF COURSE different sources will have different "maximum" ranges ( as I have noted in other posts different "sources" still cannot agree on how fast a Tiger 1 moved ).

Don

DRG · #4 December 27th, 2011, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

First I didn't mean to check them, but it appeared in connection with guns - then I started to check ranges...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from gun ranges in the Czech oob it seems, that O/M gun game range = approximate range in km + 190 (13 km for ZiS-3 is 203, 17 km for ML-20 = 207, 27 km for M-46 = 217 etc).

But in Portugal and Bulgarian oob it apparently doesn't fit (I didn't check others): 25pdr (12 km) = 208 (should be 202?), sFH-18 (to be taken for the Czech oob - 13 km) = 212 (should be 203?). In Bulgarian oob #240 105mm leFH-18 (12 km) has 207 (should be 202 - like #191 in Czech oob) and #241 105mm K18 FG (18-21 km) - also 207... If there is really a "+190" rule, I can check more guns in several other oobs.

There is no "approximate range in km + 190 " rule and I really do not understand how you figured there might be. The game range conversions for off map arty is posted in the MOBHack help. The 25 pounder range is wrong in both SPWW2 and SPMBT and has already been corrected. Other ranges COULD be slightly off if ranges in yards were not converted to meters before converting to game ranges. The other, simpler, explanation is the ranges were originally taken from a different source.

If the Bulgarian leFH-18 differs from the Czech 105mm M18/49 it's because there is no sane way to keep track of multiple national designations for one weapon so that they all stay in sync with one another which is why I have no intention of digging the hole deeper by making the existing problem worse than it is by changing any more weapons to suit nation naming conventions.

As for the leFH-18 Hogg lists 4 guns with that designation in part and the maximum range given ranges from 12,325m/13,479 y to 12,700m / 13,889 y which gives a max range for that gun 202-203 and even if yards were used as meters in error the range would be 203 -204 so the 207 in the Bulgarian OOB ( and any other OOBs I find it in ) is wrong and it should be 202 as in W #191 in the Czech OOB which is now named 105mm leFH 18 ( along with all the othes ) so things like this do not happen again and why ( I repeat ) I am NOT going to add to the "nationalized" naming problem that already exists

So YES there is a need to review all the arty ranges ( maybe next year )in the game but NO this is not the time because the errors that exist really only occasionally affect counter battery fire and that does not adversely affect game play and , like most "errors" in the game, when (if ) I fix them all nobody is going to notice the game plays any differently than it does now.

Don

Pibwl · #5 January 6th, 2012, 08:55 PM

Thanks for an appreciation of picking some bugs in artillery...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG

There is no "approximate range in km + 190 " rule and I really do not understand how you figured there might be.

Very simply: 203 for ZiS-3 - 13 (km) = 190, and in most cases it worked

It appears just a mathematical formula for a rule given in MOBHack help (okay, I should have read that section first - it would be easier for me. This time I've read all).

There was no need (for me at least) of such an elaborate answer. I'm aware of possible discrepancies in sources, and I'd probably ignore range 201 or 203 for leFH-18 - that's why I've reported 207 as possible error. I won't check all, buf you don't mind, I'll report further bugs in this field if I spot them?...

Regards
Michal

Pibwl · #6 January 11th, 2012, 08:06 PM

I've just spotted, that several tanks have too high RF values comparing with Soviet OOB:

002, 008 T-34/85 - RF 4 instead of 3.

BTW - it isn't clear, if Heat ammo was used in the later one - at least initially. This scan from 1954 Czechoslovak manual doesn't show Heat http://forum.valka.cz/attachments/1058/Mun_cia.jpg (from this page http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/33708 ), only "365" family rounds and two CS-made APCBCHE rounds (1 and 2)

003 T-54A, 005 T-55, 009 T-55A, 012 T-54AR, 014 T-54AM - RF 11 instead of 6 (simple sight with range scale)

Fire control issues:

015 T-72 - maybe it should have FC 15 (now 10), like Soviet basic T-72 Ural? It was no wonder anyway, and this model was given to Czechoslovakia and Poland when newer T-72A was on the way, so maybe they didn't simplified it more.

219 T-55AM2P KMT-6 - has FC 20, while ordinary #011 T-55AM2 with the same Kladivo FCS - 25

221 T-72M1 KMT-6 - has FC 25, while ordinary #018 T-72M1 - 20 (also Soviet T-72A)

Some leftovers:

473 Para Engineers - it's unlikely for 1980+ unit to have vz.24 SMG from the 50s - may be rather general issue vz.58 like #472 unit (then pic 37099 - current one isn't vz.24 anyway)

511 82mm Mortar Pl - SKS rifle wasn't used in CS - may be 006 vz/24 SMG or 020 M38/44 Carbine

516 12cm Mortar Sec - according to this table http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...084&fullsize=1 withdrawn by 1968 (now 12/82). Seems, that they returned to mortars only with vz.82 model (I don't know when, but we might leave 517 unit as it is). This gap would make mess in formations 048, 054 and would need date correction in formations 216, 236, 237.

520 16cm Mortar - in 1951 there were none (http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3156 ), no mention on a page on 1945-1948 artillery either (now: 1/46-12/54). According to this page there was a licence production from 1954, but there's no info, it they were imported before this date. I'd set 1953 or 54 as a starting date (closer to truth, than 1946). Needs change in formation #192.

520 16cm Mortar - used until 1960 at least (http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...084&fullsize=1 ) (now 12/59). Needs change in formation #192.
SKS rifle wasn't used in CS - may be 006 vz/24 SMG or 020 M38/44 Carbine

526-529 Para Observer - it's unlikely for 1980+ unit to have vz.24 SMG from the 50s - may be rather 005 Skorpion

533-535 Observer Team - as above - rather general issue vz.58 rifle, like unit 532. Last unit might receive #13 CZ 905 (from 2011 actually)

543 Prime Mover - better picture, of the Czechoslovak vehicle is Tatra 65480 or 29173

922 Su-25K - it could carry even 120 rockets 80mm (now: 80) - 6x20-tube - there could be added third weapon #186 with 10 shots.

926 Su-22M-4 - it could carry 192 rockets 57mm (now: 144) - 6x32-tube launcher configuration - weapons could be given 8 shots instead of 6.

There could be also created a common variant with 4x20 more useful 80mm rockets - two weapons 186 4x80mm rocket with 10 shots (like unit #925) or three with 7,7,6 shots.

153 Su-22M-4 (omitted earlier) - it could carry 6x500 kg bombs instead of 4 (max load is 8).

930 Su-7B - should be renamed Su-7BM or BKL, acquired only in early 1964 (now 1/61 - source: see unit #149). Armament is OK. It could be used until end of 80s (now 1/81) or there could be created Su-7BKL from 1/70 until 12/89 with added third weapon #185 4x57mm S-5 with 8 shots (6-hardpoint variant with 6x16 rockets).
Eventually, from mid-70s there could be variant with some EW underwing pod.

There could be created additional Su-7BKL variants
- 4 x #176 240mm S-24 Rkt (from 1964)
- 6 x #176 240mm S-24 Rkt (from 1970)

That's the end as for now.

Michal

Pibwl · #7 January 12th, 2012, 04:43 PM

209 RBS-90 SAM - it should be named RBS-70. First delivered in 12/105, presented to public in unit in 3/106 (now:1/107) [Raport 04/2006]

From 4/08 the Czech Republic uses in Afghanistan several IVECO LMV with 12.7mm MG (unit #224 from Italian oob) and Dingo 2 with 7.62mm MG3 (unit 66 from German oob) [Armia 09/2009, http://gdziewojsko.wordpress.com/arm...ske-republiky/ ]

I don't know, if T-72M4CZ should have weaker basic turret armour, than T-72M1.

Michal