Early HEAT for Soviet tanks...

[Suhiir]

Using different powder charges, thus different length shell cases, for the same caliber gun wasn't exactly rare during WW II.
I seem to recall some German anti-tank gun(s) using a longer shell then the same caliber weapon used in tanks.

[Marcello]

As far as I have read the D-48 was an attempt at producing a lighter/better antitank gun than the BS-3 100mm. It uses a cartridge derived from that of the BS-3 ammunition but with an 85mm projectile. Higher MV than ordinary 85mm but lighter gun than a full 100mm weapon. Neat solution, as long as kinetic rounds were still the mainstay, as it was at the time it was developed.
Obviously ammunition would not be interchageable with standard 85mm, nor used on normal T-34s.

[Marcello]

Giving a look at the russian OOB, I see the problem. Probably to save the scarce weapons slots T-34s have been armed with antitank guns. Works ok with the D-44,not so great with the D-48.The only solution of sort without adding an additional weapon would be giving the D-44 BK-2/M HEAT values, issue HEAT only later (say late 60's onwards) to give it improved firepower.

Admittedly there is not a great deal online on the D-48, and what little there is is probably based on the same Jane's reference. I could try to give a look at the ordnace databases to see if I can get a look at D-48 ammo, but it is a bit elusive.

[Pibwl]

By the way, according to table 16 and text on pages above, D-48 was commissioned in 1953, but first 28 guns were produced only in 1954 - we have it available from 1/53 (#582 Russian OOB).

As for unit #802 85mm SD-48 AT - there's no sign, that such variant was produced. On the page http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...O/SuPTO035.htm there is only a short information, that a construction of prototype started in 1956 and "the author hasn't found data on SD-48 tests" - and that's all on this gun there (it shows on the first page, that it's a book "Otechestvennaya protivotankovaya artilleria" - "Homeland's AT artillery" by Aleksandr Shirokorad). Russian Wikipedia explicitly says, that SD-48 wasn't commissioned http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/85-%D0%...0%B0_%D0%94-48

It could be replaced eg. with night fighting variant D-48N (small party of 100 guns made in 1957) or more popular D-44N (from around same time).

Speaking of Soviet artillery: weapon #79 ZiS-2 has sabot range 20 (penetration 15), while table 41 here http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...O/SuPTO019.htm indicates, that BR-271N (Б�*-271Н) still could pierce 125mm at 1500 m.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

One more thing: according to a quoted Russian article, the first Heat round for 100 mm D-10T gun - spinless 3BK5 / 3BK5M (according to Bronekllektsya, 390mm penetration) was introduced only in 1961. Also in Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2008 monograph on T-54 there is ammo for T-54A quoted: 20 HE, 14 AP, and Heat is mentioned only from 1961.

To make it complete, a Bronekollektsya monograph of T-55 claims, that in 1967 there appeared first sabot round 3BM10 (up to 290mm penetration - at 2km?), then only in 1980s: HEAT 3BK17M and sabot 3BM25.

Regards
Michal

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

One more thing: according to a quoted Russian article, the first Heat round for 100 mm D-10T gun - spinless 3BK5 / 3BK5M (according to Bronekllektsya, 390mm penetration) was introduced only in 1961. Also in Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2008 monograph on T-54 there is ammo for T-54A quoted: 20 HE, 14 AP, and Heat is mentioned only from 1961.

To make it complete, a Bronekollektsya monograph of T-55 claims, that in 1967 there appeared first sabot round 3BM10 (up to 290mm penetration - at 2km?), then only in 1980s: HEAT 3BK17M and sabot 3BM25.

Regards
Michal

From what I recall from discussions on tanknet BK-5 - BK-5M had rather different performance, it was something like 280mm - 380mm (BK-5M incorporated a wave shaper). BK-5 was also available earlier, around 1958 or so.

Some combat load that I collected:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...ht=combat+load

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Marcello

Some combat load that I collected:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...ht=combat+load

Related to this topic.

I am checking total ammo loadouts for all T-54 and T-55's in the game and correcting the ones that deviate from the standard.

That said I am finding quite a few late model T-55's with less than the standard 43 total rounds and I'm wondering if in modernizing these things the ammo load was reduced somewhat ? I'm not having a lot of success finding any relevant info on this.


Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Marcello

From what I recall from discussions on tanknet BK-5 - BK-5M had rather different performance, it was something like 280mm - 380mm (BK-5M incorporated a wave shaper). BK-5 was also available earlier, around 1958 or so.

I'm only quoting what is in publications:
- M. Pavlov and I. Pavlov in TiV 9/2008 write, that in 1961 there was introduced 3UBK4 cartridge with 3BK5 or 3BK5M rounds. Heat round could pierce 180mm inclined at 60deg (they don't write which one, but it looks like both were similar). There is no explanation of the difference, but in case of 76mm D-56, BK-354 had steel cone, while BK-354M had copper one (M for "myednaya" - copper). They repeated it in TiV 10/2008 on T-54 tank.
- authors of Bronekolektsya 4/2008 on T-55 tank even wrote, that 3BK5M was used in T-55 from 1963, and it penetrated 390mm.

Regards
Michal