Polish OOB 5.5

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

There should be added instead M2 Halftrack - a limited number used as APC by internal security forces until end of 1950s (some 1958) (along with SU-57 and M17 SP-guns with removed armament). Armament might be DT AAMG.

It should be rather named just Halftrack, with carry capacity 111 or so (the Soviets received M2, M5 and M9).

Michal

[Pibwl]

Closing to an end:

404 BRM-1D - correct Polish designation of Russian BRM-1K is BWR-1D. Ammunition for gun should probably be redistributed (some 10 HE, 10 Heat). It has 6-tube SD (now:0). Vision and RF should be higher - it's equipped with GSR and laser RF. Crew is 4 (2) and carry is only 2 (112) - could be 3+3 to carry a scout section. Radio should be 91 (less popular, than BRDM-2). Better icon is 7460 (BMP-2) - it has similar larger two-men turret (winter 7465, desert 1707). [source: nTW 1/2001, Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 4/2001]

There should be also added BWR-1S Svatava (Czech BPzV) - same data, but icon of ordinary BMP-1 (3474 camo, 1703 winter, 1698 desert). Ammo: 76 (probably half HE and Heat), added #145 Malutka with 7 missiles. Crew/carry 3+3. Used from some 1991.


405, 406 MT-LB/120, MT-LB Vasilek - there weren't any SP-mortars used by the Polish Army so far.

410 BTR-40 - apparently this one should be class Scout vehicle (class Gun APC - identical unit is #51). Should be used until some 1965 (now: 12/60) (especially, that BRDM-1 should be available from 1963 and it would make a gap)

411 BRDM-1 (scout veh.) - only armament should be SGMB AAMG (as unit #52). Better name is just BRDM. Used from 1963 (now: 1/61) [Poligon 3/2010] until no later, than some 1985 (12/90)

412 BRDM-2 (Scout veh.) - used from 1966 until now - I guess until 1/115 at least (now: 1/67-12/105) [Poligon 3/2010].
Soviet BRDM-2s in that period (#698, 699) have vision 15 (this one 20). In fact, it has no night gun sights at all [confirmed in Raport 9/2010], maybe only driver's IR vision.


414 IS-IIm1944 - correct name is just IS-2 (IS-2m eventually). "1944" wasn't official and is redundant. Ammo was 14/14, according to J. Kajetanowicz's book (now 8/20).

417 TOPAS-2AP - reportedly used until 1994 (12/93). Correct pic 29085

Formation #85 needs change of last date according to this unit - and first date: 1963 according to my suggestions on unit 054 OT-62 (TOPAS). I've suggested before to create naval infantry formations in 1963-1991, with Heavy amphibs.

703 Marynarka TOPAS - this unit is redundant - same as unit above, with different icon. Name makes no sense (Navy Topas) - TOPAS APC weren't used by the Navy, and all were used by landing units.

420 T-70m - there was no "m" used in practice (theoretically it was T-70M version, introduced soon after production's beginning). Withdrawn from the Polish Army in 5/49 (now:12/55) [Poligon 3/2010] (needs change in formation 66 as last unit)

421 T-60 - only 3 vehicles used for training - and not clear, if used after 1945. To be removed IMO.

423 RBS-23 SAM - fiction. To be removed.

425 Lisunov Li-2 - considering, that first Polish paratroop units were created in 1959, it's better to replace it with more modern Il-14T, used for this purpose in Poland (540 from Russian OOB, icon 4578) - until mid-70s. Polish picture is 29082.

426 Antonov An-26 - introduced in 1972 (now 1/68). It should be just An-26 (designer names weren't officially used as a part of name of Soviet aircraft)

427 Antonov An-26 - withdrawn in 1/109 (12/120)

430 BTR-40u - used from 1/55 until no later, than mid-70s (1/53-12/99). Icon should be open 2927

432 GAZ Jeep - correct pic is 41063 (UAZ in fact)

433, 434 UAZ-69 Trzmiel - first date 1/60 is impossible, since it was commissioned in the USSR in 8/60 (http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...R/PturR003.htm ). Realistic earliest date will be some 1962. Same date for #030 BRDM-1 Trzmiel and 082 formation.

Besides, it should be GAZ-69 Trzmiel, and it was used apparently in small numbers (radio 91 - basic was BRDM-mounted) - no later, than until mid-70s. One unit should be enough. It should have no armour at all.

439 Rys-Azalia AOP - Ryś wasn't introduced so far. Besides, Azalia wouldn't be FO vehicle, but artillery command vehicle.

440 BWP-2 - better icon is camouflaged 1712 (only before sale they were repainted green) [Poligon 6/2010]. Withdrawn already in mid-94 (12/94). It should have SD 2 (1) - 6 tubes.


445 Ski Sniper - more proper pic is 41019 (Mosin), instead of some rifle unused in Poland.

448 Lowcza-3 AOP - this isn't FO vehicle, but AA unit's command vehicle.

450 Ski Scouts - RPG-2 wasn't used that early - should be AT grenades.

451 Ski Scouts - P-27 wasn't widely used - better to be replaced with 015 RPG-2.

452 Ski Scouts - definitely main weapon would be general issue 008 AK rifle, not SMG, especially PM63.

453 Ski Scouts - wz.89 Onyks wasn't adopted. Should be just 029 AKM(S) rifle.

455 SKOT-1A AOP - proper designation of artillery command vehicle is SKOT R-2AM - but it's used only from 1986 [Polish Military Equipment] (now: 1/65). Not clear, if it's AOP vehicle though.

465 Ski Riflemen - Carl Gustaf is very rare weapon, not used in sections. Should be just RPG-7 or its variant.

473 Para Engineers - Onyks SMG should be replaced with Tantal rifle 007.

477, 478 PKMS MMG [2] - correct pic is 45377. Later one should be used until 120 (won't be wiped out)

479 UKM MMG [2] - pic as above

482 Spike ATGM (para) - crew is 3 (now: 2) (it's sure needed to carry launcher and 4 missiles)

483, 484 Factoria ATGM (para) - Faktoria was never used in Poland. To be removed.

485 B10 Recoilless (para-RR) - used only in around 1955-1979 (see unit #68) (now 55-99). Secondary weapon should be 008 AKM or 006 SMG. Standard crew was 3 men (like unit 68)

Date change might interfere with form. 267 Para Co [A] - but the paras were used in Poland from 1959 anyway.

486 SPG9 Recoilless (para-RR) - apparently still in service in 2009 - possibly until 120 (12/94). According to some sources, used from 1968 (now 71). Standard crew is 4 men (now 2) - I don't think that the paras would differ.

Standard SPG-9 had vision=0 - there was version SPG-9N with IR sights.

487 C Gustaf RCL - used by airmobile forces only from 2001 (comment for unit 223)

488, 489 Malutka-2 ATGM - definitely not used.

490 Para Fagot ATGM - rifle should be changed to 007 wz.88 - wz.89 Onyks wasn't adopted.

495-499 Abn Observer - maybe a better name would be Para Observer? I had to guess what is "Abn".

495 Abn Observer (50-59) - first Polish paratroop units were created in 1959 only. Anyway, it should have 006 SMG instead of bolt rifle.

496 Abn Observer (60-89) - if the unit above is removed, it should be available from 6/59 (creation of Polish paratroop division) or 1/60.
Possibly better armament for a para fwd observer is 234 SMG

497 Abn Observer - wz.89 Onyks should be changed to 007 wz.88

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

Mortars...

507 60mm Mortar Sec - there weren't any 60 mm mortars in Poland before 2001 - so it should be removed (see below).

508 60mm Mortar Sec - introduced only in 2001 (now 1/70) [http://www.militarium.net/viewart.php?aid=173 and other sorces].
It would need changes in formations 314 and 270. Maybe 270 should be available from 2001, and ending date of 269 should be extended.
According to Polish MoD page, standard unit of ammo is 40 (now 60).
82mm mortars were earlier used by the Polish paras (weight 56 kg), but I don't know in what formations.

As for weapon #030 60mm LM-60D Mtr - according to MoD page and other Polish sources max range is only 2329 m (47) - now: 60.

511 82mm Mortar Sec - crew's weapon in this period should be 06 SMG instead of bolt rifle (earlier it would be probable as well)

513 82mm Mortar Sec - crew's weapon should be Beryl rifle (028) instead of Beryl SMG (limited use).

515 2x120mm Mortars - might as well be armed with #42 120mm M43 Mtr - both were used from the beginning, and have essentially the same specs. Weapon #246 PM obr38 is redundant then (it has too small min. range (3) - it should be 450-460m, just like #42). Better picture is 29425 - current is some Western mortar with integral wheels.

516 2x120mm Mortars - as above. Crew's weapon in this period should be 06 SMG instead of bolt rifle (earlier it would be probable as well)

517 2x120mm Mortars - standard crew's weapon in this period should be general issue AKMS (029), not SMG. Better picture is 29425. It should be used until 115-120 - there are no newer mortars as for now (now: 12/99)

520 2x160mm Mortars - used only from 1951 (1/46), according to J. Kajetanowicz. Crew's weapon should be 06 SMG in that period.

It would need changes in form. 209 - first date 1951, last - 1979? (see below)

521 2x160mm Mortars - crew's weapon should be 06 SMG

523 2x160mm Mortars - they sure weren't used in that period (90-96) - withdrawn well before this date, but I have no closer info. Probably late 1970s.

525 2x120mm Mortars - there are no new 120mm mortars as for now - possible date is 2013 (there is a new mortar M120 developed http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSW_M120 but not produced so far). Icon should be 67, pic - 29425.

Weapon 164 120mm M120 Mtr has too small min range (4) - it should be 9-10 (480 m)

527 120mmM43 Mortar - standard crew's weapon is general issue AKMS (029), not SMG (what is confirmed by photos). Picture should be 29425 (now it's 160mm).

528 120mmM43 Mortar - crew's weapon should be Beryl rifle (028) instead of limited issue Beryl SMG. It should be available until 115 at least (now 12/99). Picture should be 29425 (now it's 160mm).

529 120mmM120 Mort - there are no new 120mm mortars as for now - see notes for #525 - possible date 2013.

There could be added 120mm 2B11 mortar (weapon no 44) used in limited quantity (radio 91) from 1984. Secondary weapon should be AKMS (29), crew 6 men.

533 Observer Team - redundant unit - Onyks SMG wasn't used.

Michal

[Pibwl]

230 Ammo truck - icon of early ammo truck should be eg. 3026, with long nose.

540 76.2mm obr27 IG - not used in Poland. It should be 76.2mm AP-43 IG in fact (Soviet obr.1943). Picture: 29438. Withdrawn by 1954 (now: 12/49)

Weapon 236 should be changed to AP-43 or M.43 gun - range 4200 m only.

542 Komsolets - never used in Poland - should be changed to Ja-12 tractor

Specifications would be similar, but speed up to 38 km/h, picture - 29395, some trucklike icon, used 1946 - mid-1960s.

It's worth to add also tractors:
- Polish built Mazur D-350 - specifications similar, speed up to 53 km/h, picture - 29390, some trucklike icon, used 1961 - mid-80s?
- ATS-59 - unit 342 from Finland's OOB (though it's worth to find other icon with truck long nose), used from 1965?-120.

543 Truck - better picture is 29170 Ural truck - 4x2 trucks like 11067 weren't used in Poland, especially as artillery tractors. Better icon, with long nose, is 3026,

550 SU-57 - correct picture is 29041 (current one is Israeli improvised vehicle). There were few vehicles left after the war (probably 5), and most probably, as SP-guns they were used no longer, than some 1948, especially, that they fired not typical American ammo. Magnuski wrote, that "some" vehicles were converted to ordinary halftrack APC (used by internal security forces), but I think, that considering their small number and ammo issue, all were converted, or at least they weren't operational as SP-guns.

551 85mm AT-Gun - standard weapon of gunners in that period was AKMS rifle (#29), not SMG.

553 BRDM-2 Konkurs - in fact, there shouldn't be difference from unit 34. They differ in radio, but both are equally rare. See comments for unit 34. If we keep unit 34 only, it should be available until 120.

554 85mm AT-Gun+ - crew's weapon as 551. Maybe better name would be "85mm AT-Gun (N)" (N for night) - the gun with night sights was designated D-44N.

Night vision for 85mm gun was introduced in mid-60s (now it's 1/70) - maybe there should be created such earlier unit, with weapon like unit #82.

562 SA-4 Ganef - was to be withdrawn in 6/111 (now 12/120) [Raport 05/2011]. Proper name is 2K11 Krug

564, 569 SA-3 Neva SC - should be S-125 Newa-SC (Polish modernization)

584 PILO Dzik - precisely, Dzik 2 (PILO abbreviation is not used commonly - it means Intervention Vehicle Lightly Armoured or something like this, Dzik means wild boar). Used from 8/105 at best (now 1/105) [nTW 7/2005]

586 Jenot - prototype only, with little chance to be produced.

590 Lockheed C-130K - there are used only C-130E, first delivered in 3/09 (now 1/03) (plans to buy C-130K were abandoned) [nTW 4/09]

591 CASA 295 - precisely CASA C-295M. First delivered in 8/03 (now 1/03). It can carry 73 passengers, BUT only 46 paratroops (now carry=178) [nTW 4/09]

608 Osa AMRAAM - science-fiction as for now

609 SA-8 Osa Sting, 610 SA-8 Osa-AKM - in fact, both should be the same, but I don't know which data is closer to truth - maybe radar 110. Correct name is Osa-AKM-P1 (aka Zadlo, export name Sting). Starting date 1/105 is better. It also received laser RF (I don't know if there's a use in SP-SAM, but it has RF 8 now).

611 Loara SP-SAM - in plans only, with slight chance even to reach prototype stage.

612 Poprad - starting date should be mid-2011 (1/105). New chassis Zubr-P is lightly armoured (survivability will be more than 1) - see photo http://www.magnum-x.pl/index.php?opt...id=4&Itemid=12
It has laser RF and some FC system. It should use final version of Grom missiles (see comments for 205 Grom team). Speed is sure more, than 20, but I found no specific data (some 80-90 km/h at least).

613 Irbis-Poprad - abandoned. I don't recall even a prototype. All Poprads will be lightly armoured (see above)

Michal

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

With a C3 P10 the Patria AMV/Polish ROSOMAK (WOLVERINE) is a very capable APC. The report of the RPG-7 survivability appear to true, I've found several refs to support one was hit in Afghanistan in 2008 three times by RPG-7's, survived, returned fire and returned to base on it's own power the first ref also eludes to this, it should be noted there are a handful of other similar reports of the same type with less hits. The SPIKE-LR version does appear to be stalled and does carry a standard ring mounted 12.7mm but the Polish source below also indicates it carries "ppk two sections of SPIKE-LR on board" (MANPADS?). Majority of 12.7mm systems appear to be ROWS as ELBIT won a huge contract to supply them in particular to the M1 versions from the source below after ref one. Hopefully all refs after number one stay in the translated mode as the site offers an English version option.
http://www.military-today.com/apc/patria_amv.htm
http://www.altair.com.pl/start-4555
http://www.altair.com.pl/start-5063
http://www.armyrecognition.com/italy...fications.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/2008_...countries.html

With the last ref under the UAE 1/2 way down the article as of 2/2008 it was the ONLY vehicle of it's type to pass the ARMSCOR very demanding tests. Much as I hate over protected vehicles like ARJUN which was by accident, I hate to arbitrarily see the protection of one be reduced without some further research.

And an update on the ANDERS 120mm. ANDERS is still a developmental vehicle their is some speculation the Philippine Government might be interested in the 120mm or 105mm versions with an ATGW.
http://www.altair.com.pl/start-5247

Regards,
Pat

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

The SPIKE-LR version does appear to be stalled and does carry a standard ring mounted 12.7mm but the Polish source below also indicates it carries "ppk two sections of SPIKE-LR on board" (MANPADS?). Majority of 12.7mm systems appear to be ROWS as ELBIT won a huge contract to supply them in particular to the M1 versions from the source below after ref one.

Spike sections are indeed transported inside Rosomak-S variant - I didn't mention this one, because it may be covered by APC variants (with 12.7mm or AGL). There is however no firm information, if Spike-carrying vehicles are armed at all...

Speaking of Elbit, you mean unmanned turrets 12.7mm?... In 2005 Rafael RCWS-127 Mini Samson wond a tender, but it was cancelled. Another tender was won in 2006 by OTO Mellera Hitrole, but it was cancelled as well. In 2007, the Polish Army decided to quit from unmanned turrets - and AFAIK this is actual state.

Michal

[Pibwl]

570 BRDM-2M96i - armament should be #80 14.5mm TMG, not 12.7. I'm afraid this vehicle should have no game-relevant distinctions from BRDM-2 (cut-off side doors, newer engine, same armament and poor vision devices, no SD) - maybe only bigger survivability due to better firefighting system.

571 BRDM-2B Zbik B - precisely BRDM-2M97B Zbik or just BRDM-2 Zbik-B (not BRDM-2B) - introduced around 9/1998 (now 1/103). Armament is 12.7mm WKM-B TMG, not AAMG. It's not clear, if serial vehicles use Fagot ATGM - there should be also second variant available, without Fagot (in both classes: Scout veh. and Gun APC). Vision should be 30 (20). Speed is 100 km/h. Its SD are in fact VIRSS, with automatic laser warning Obra system [Raport 8/1999]

I suggest to create 12.7mm WKM-B TMG in a place of #67 DShK CMG - not existing as CMG in Poland, used only by unit 443 MT-LBu 1W15+, which shouldn't use such weapon, especially from 2000 (I'll deal closer with MTLBu's in next season). As for now, unit 443 could use NSVT AAMG rather.

575 BRDM-2M97 - to be removed - Factoria ATGM is not used in Poland. Or to be changed to variant with no ATGM. Proper pic is 45419 or 29282, other comments as above.

576 BRDM-2B Zbik B - as #571 (different class)

577 BRDM-2 Zbik-A - precisely BRDM-2M97A Zbik or BRDM-2 Zbik-A. AFAIK, there still exist only 1 vehicle, although it was commissioned... It could be, with radio 3. Correct icon is 2319, carry=104, SD 2 are VIRSS.

578 BRDM-2 Szakal - better picture is 29281 (it has old turret - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...097_Szakal.JPG ) Precisely, it's BRDM-2M96ik model. It should have 12.7mm WKM-B TMG (not AAMG). No SD.

579 BRDM-2 Szakal+ - only a demonstrator with bar armour, abandoned - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._Szakal%2B.JPG

We'll be finishing soon... I'm tired as well

Regards
Michal