Greek OOB31 v.9

[blazejos]

Article about Perless Armoured cars in Greek service with correct photos

about icons best will be Swedish improvised armoured cars or from polish OOB Pegout 1918

Russian language original version of article
http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/armored...ac_peerles.htm

Google translated to English
https://translate.google.pl/translat...htm&edit-text=

[Pibwl]

Problem with these icons is, that they have turrets.

Originally Posted by Pibwl

43 Rifle Squad - as for weapon #95: Greece in fact didn't use 8mm M1909 LMG (Hotchkiss Portative), but 6000 of its 6.5mm variant M1922/26 - but we already have a squad 049 with M1926 LMG... BTW - photo 16204 is better for both LMG-equipped sections.
There were also 6000 Chauchats, but it's for desperados...

Same for pairs: 158&159, 161&163 - these with M1909 LMG should be removed. Also Greek Wikipedia confirms 6.5mm LMG as the main model, apart from Chauchat https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A7...%CF%82_1922/26

However, from 11-12/40, Greeks impressed into service also Italian Breda M.30 LMGs.

I didn't mean to check infantry in fact, so only this one, for which I have info:

As for formation #36 Infantry Pl - according to TWH 6/2015 there were only three identical squads in a platoon - what would agree with http://ww2greece.wargaming.info/file...y-regiment.pdf (from page http://ww2greece.wargaming.info/TOandEs.htm) (unfortunately, without a platoon level, but a platoon has 3 LMGs and 3 grenade launchers...). Also, according to TWH, 8-men squads were completed with 3-men LMG sections in late 1940, what brought a number of men to 11 (with 4-men platoon command section, it conforms perfectly with this TOE). Unfortunately, the author doesn't care to write (or maybe doesn't know) how LMGs were organized before. (Also, according to this article, in 1941 additional two ammo bearers were added to an LMG section - but an additional confirmation would be welcome).
It seems from both sources, that there should be a rifle grenade launcher in each squad - now we have it only in Heavy Inf. unit in a company command (units 161-163).

In a company #05 Infantry Co we have now a lot of units, and three platoons. From sources above, there should be four platoons, no 60 mm mortars (unknown at all), no field guns (which were only 2 at regimental level), no horses (apart from transport ones), and probably no scouts.
Apart from four platoons, a company only had a 9-men command section (with no LMGs nor rifle grenades).
I guess, that up to 4 MGs could have been assigned from regimental MG company (we have 2), but 2 infantry guns and 4 81mm mortars had to serve all three companies.


As for mortars:
329 50mm Mortars, 330 60mm Mortars - no info in any sources, only 81 mm were used pre-war.

331 81mm Mortars - a nice photo of Greek mortar is at http://greekmilitary.net/WW2.htm
(just for information, the article in TWH suggests, that only in 1937 Greece bought any mortars - which is hard to believe..)

332 45mm Mortar - used already since some 11/40 (captured on Italians and delivered by the British) - might need another entry in other class, if we treat them the same as 81mm mortars.

Also 2in mortars were delivered by the British during the defensive war (1/41?)


52 88mm FlaK 36 - in fact acquired around 1938, but I guess nobody thought of using them against tanks
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...58435&start=75

61 MG42 AAMG - photo is not appropriate (water-cooled Maxim), but it's hard to find MG-42 AAMG... Maybe St. Etienne AAMG will be better (at least it's Greek)

68 Pioneer Squad - LMG should be #99 M1926
(I haven't checked other instances of M1909 usage)

73 .303 Bren AAMG - photo is not appropriate, could possibly be British 1202 or 3943

214 37mm AA-Gun - if it is US M1, then it should have picture 2313

216 50 cal AAMG - picture is some LMG (ZB vz.26?)

219 75mm Howitzer, 260,264 75mm Bty - the best Greek 75mm was M1919 Schneider L/19 mountain gun, mentioned before, with a range of 9000 km - slightly lacking for an off-map arty... Rest of 75mm guns had poorer range according to http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...?f=12&t=158435
Not very good photo (hard to find): http://www.trackhead.gr/02_research_...hneider_02.jpg (from http://www.trackhead.gr/02_research_GreekArtillery.html)

For an off-map gun, 100 mm M14/19 howitzer (Skoda) might be added (range 9.8 km - almost 200), eg. copied from Polish 332 and 411 units - info at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...?f=12&t=158435


220,225,261,265 85mm Howitzer/Bty - it was a twin tail gun, photo http://forum.axishistory.com/downloa...0ca1bd9823036c or http://www.trackhead.gr/02_research_...hneider_03.jpg - more info at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=158435
Better icon is 58 or 59 or 2102, with a muzzle brake

Range 207 of weapon #249 is sightly overestimated - it was 15,150 m (should be 205)

221,262 105mm Howitzer - correct photo is http://forum.axishistory.com/downloa...0ca1bd9823036c

Weapon #70 105mm M.1925/27 should have bigger range of 206 - 15.5km (now 204)

238 Marksman - a nice photo for a marksman is on http://ww2today.com/16-november-1940...-invaders-back

263 155mm How Bty - used in mid-30s at least (Somua tractors were bought for them in mid-30s). I suspect, that they were used from 1/30 - they were WW1 vintage howitzers, and it's doubtful to buy them in 1939.

290 65mm Field Gun - great photo is 8856 (used for unit 320)

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

68 Pioneer Squad - LMG should be #99 M1926
(I haven't checked other instances of M1909 usage)

As for LMGs, my educated guess is, that second-line units like pioneers could have Chauchat LMGs, since the army was short of M1922/26 LMGs, but I have no sources...

221,262 105mm Howitzer - correct photo is http://forum.axishistory.com/downloa...0ca1bd9823036c

It had twin tails, opening rather wide (and was a field gun, not a howitzer) - I suggest icon 2123

263 155mm How Bty - used in mid-30s at least (Somua tractors were bought for them in mid-30s). I suspect, that they were used from 1/30 - they were WW1 vintage howitzers, and it's doubtful to buy them in 1939.

Bought by 1926 according to http://www.trackhead.gr/02_research_GreekArtillery.html

224 75mm Howitzer - same remarks as as 219 above

268 149mm How Bty - it was Skoda M.14 (as the weapon's name and http://www.trackhead.gr/02_research_GreekArtillery.html show), but there were only 11, and it was on-map weapon, with range up to 8760 m (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_...dhaubitze_M_14 ). Range 209 is way too big.

Seems from the page quoted above and http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...?f=12&t=158435 that Greece had no off-map heavy arty

269,270,273,275 18 Pdr Howitzer - precisely, US version of 18pdr M1917 http://www.trackhead.gr/02_research_GreekArtillery.html

274,277 6in Field How/Bty - by 1941 they were ancient 6in BL Vickers 30cwt, not 26 cwt - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_6-inch_30_cwt_howitzer - range 201 is too big for unit 274. As for unit 277, there could have been newer 26cwt given by the British after fall of Greece, so it can remain an off-map arty.

320-327 mountain guns - same remarks, as above:

320,324 65mm Mtn Gun - icon should be single-tail 2108.

321, 325 75mm Mtn Gun - as unit 27.

As for units in class 16 Inf.Spt. Gun (25, 27, 46, 47) it seems from this TOE http://ww2greece.wargaming.info/TOandEs.htm, that the only gun used in infantry regiments was 65mm. The rest could be removed as Inf.spt.guns, especially, that there was no chance of substitution 65mm mobile guns with 105mm field howitzers. So these weapons are more correct in their 320-327 entries.

322,326 105mm Mtn Gun - as unit 46.

323,327 150mm Mtn Gun - no sIG-33 used.

462 37mm AT-Gun - in 1943, 37mm Bofors seems more probable, than Pak, and with British rifles (photo is correct).

471 MG34 - the same photo, not proper for MG-34.

476 20mm SPAA - in fact, such vehicles were also used from around 1938 until 4/41 (with German Flak guns on trucks)

503 BR 2 Pdr Portee - photo is 6pdr, should be 12536


Greece used also 13mm Hotchkiss AAMG http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...58435&start=30

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

268 149mm How Bty - it was Skoda M.14 (as the weapon's name and http://www.trackhead.gr/02_research_GreekArtillery.html show), but there were only 11, and it was on-map weapon, with range up to 8760 m (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_...dhaubitze_M_14 ). Range 209 is way too big.

Seems from the page quoted above and http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...?f=12&t=158435 that Greece had no off-map heavy arty

...of course, apart from 263 155mm How Bty, which was off-map.

That's enough for the Greek artillery (I wasn't even going to dig that deep in the beginning...)


98, 114, 119, 120 Breguet XIX - it may be given an own photo, eg from here https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...-bre-xix-a2b2/ (with a nice sigma marking) or
https://www.haf.gr/wp-content/upload...1940_41_01.jpg

98 Breguet XIX [fighter-bomber] - it had only one forward-firing MG. Is there a reason, why is it available only from 11/40?...

99 Potez 25 - I've found (and cleaned ) a nice photo of a Greek Potez version, which had a different engine and rudder - attached

100 Avia B.534 - it could be removed at all, since only two were used, and for operational training rather: https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...-534-verze-ii/ (it is also confirmed in Czech monograph on B534).

If it is kept, then it's worth to give it an own photo, because 2nd series aircraft were used, with open canopy and slim rear fuselage, while this one is 4th series, with distinct Axis Slovak markings. There are no known photo of Greek aircraft, but I think any Czechoslovak 2nd (or 3rd) series machines without Axis crosses will be better, eg: http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/b534/b534-6.jpg or http://www.svazletcu.cz/admin/pictures/mid/PR043.jpg

..Or I'm attaching my photo, how B534 in Greek service SHOULD look like, according to http://pre15.deviantart.net/d7e5/th/...ve-d7bc7qj.jpg


101 Bloch MB 152 - precisely MB 151 were used. Only 9 were used, but they also had two 20mm cannons - https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor.../bloch-mb-151/

102, 103 P.Z.L. P-24F,G - F was armed with 2x20 mm and 2 MGs, G - with four MGs only (not counting optional 2x50 kg bombs in both variants). However, there is information, that due to lack of ammo, most machines were converted to 4 MGs in 1939/1940. On the other hand, at least 3-4 P-24F remained with guns at least until autumn 1940.
They existed until 4/41 (at least machines with MGs).

Almost all color drawings of both variants show the aircraft in two-color camo, so it seems, that all aircraft in 1940-41 should have a camouflaged icon. According to a drawing http://alternathistory.org.ua/files/...08-640x905.JPG silver machines were used until 1940 (ie until 12/39?). I'm attaching a photo for camouflaged machines (good b&w photos, showing all aircraft, are hard to find).

BTW, I'm also attaching a photo of Bulgarian P-24 with late markings, that I've just found in a magazine (possibly retouched, but in a professional way - there are no others existing).


104 Potez 633 Grec - it was a bomber, armed with 2 MGs (now 4): https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...z-633-b2-grec/

106 Fairey Battle - delivered in 3/40 according to official HAF page https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...ey-battle-b-1/

110 BR Gladiator - photo is Belgian, it should be 12552 or 3651 instead.
Gladiators were used also by the Greek AF since 12/40 (not counting two bought around 1937) https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...ladiator-mk-i/

124 Grumman Wildcat - I couldn't find any info about post-war (or earlier) usage of Wildcats in extensive aircraft inventory on official Greek AF site https://www.haf.gr/en/history/historical-aircraft/ (I only found somewhere, that 30 Martlet Mk III were ordered and delivered to Gibraltar, next transferred to Royal Navy after defeat of Greece).

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

99 Potez 25 - I've found (and cleaned ) a nice photo of a Greek Potez version, which had a different engine and rudder - attached

BTW, it had one fixed MG (two in total). Precisely it was variant A2 https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...avion-grecque/ )

Same picture, as proposed above, should be for 115 Potez 25 AOP. It was a special version for Greece only (as the link above says).

104 Potez 633 Grec - it was a bomber, armed with 2 MGs (now 4): https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...z-633-b2-grec/

Actually, only one MG was forward firing.

106 Fairey Battle - delivered in 3/40 according to official HAF page https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...ey-battle-b-1/

On a quoted page there is also a Greek photo, although not very good.

105 Hs 126A-1 - precisely, Hs 126K-6 https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...hel-hs-126k-6/

107 Blenheim Mk.IV [fighter-bomber] - now it is armed with 6 MGs and no bombs. While they were delivered without aiming devices and bomb rails, but they were modified to carry bombs in Greece (I guess, that no sooner, than in late 1940) - https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...lenheim-mk-iv/
The quoted HAF page does not mention extra MG armament (moreover, it mentiones only one turret MG). Greek Wikipedia does not treat about their MG armament at all.

There is a photo of Greek Blenheim IV http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...eim03kopia.jpg .

Greece also used British-delivered Blenheim IV in 1/42-1/43
https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...im-mk-iv-post/

122, 143 BR Blenheim I (3/41-5/41), Blenheim I (6/41-46) [level bombers] - precisely, Greek (not British) Blenheims I were used since 2/41 until the fall of Greece, and later this type was not used by Greece (and Blenheim I was rare also in British squadrons by then) - https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...blenheim-mk-i/
Later entry could be BR Blenheim IV

There might be also created a fighter-bomber variant of Blenheim I. https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...blenheim-mk-i/


There could be added Baltimore (British unit 354): https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...iii-iiia-iv-v/

125 Spitfire Mk.XIV (1946) - HAF official page page https://www.haf.gr/en/history/historical-aircraft/ does not mention high-performance Mk.XIV at all - but Spiftire Mk V was used since 1943 - https://www.haf.gr/en/history/histor...fire-mk-vb-vc/ (Mk IX and XVI arrived after 1946)

That's all with aircraft.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

That's all with aircraft.

Exactly HOW much longer is this "a couple of observations regarding Greek OOB" going to go on for ??

SOMEDAY I hope to be able to work on a game patch and do things that doesn't involve seemingly endless list from you.......I might actually be able to do work on the game that I actually want to do....

I knew as soon as I saw this there was no way this was only going to be what you said it would be........ a couple of observations ....... NOT

[Pibwl]

Well, I had a couple of observations prepared and did not mean to go deep... but as I started to dig, and found several good Internet resources, I got a bit carried away I guess this OOB was long forgotten and it needed to be done (like these fictional tanks). On the other hand, it's me, who is wasting time researching info and giving results , while you can just ignore it - or apply one day, if you find it worthy. So, forgive, and eventually skip ahead.

There's not much left - a bit on partisans and vehicles.

Regards
Michal