There are 2 MiG-17 icons in the files one is silver and the other desert camo---- 2907 isn't even close to being one of them as it is an IWT Klon so what icon did you actually mean ??
Maybe 2809?
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Several notes (of little importance) as for Polish OOB, thanks to a new 2024 article on Polish armoured weapons from 1960s.
005 T-55A - used in a quantity from 1/69 (now 1/68)
714 T-55 - first series-built tanks commissioned in 1/65 (now 1/64) (only two T-55 were bought in 1/64 as licence patterns)
414 IS-2 - last units were disbanded in 1/64 (now 12/60), so a better ending date is 12/63.
Formations 12, 13 should be modified accordingly. Used afterwards for training.
025 SU-100
705 SU-85 - both withdrawn in 1963, so used until 12/62 (now 12/59), like formation 014 (no formation change needed).
058 FUG D422 - could be used from 1/64 (now 1/65) - first two were bought in 1963, and 50 during 1964.
It had no fixed weapons, but could be armed with some crew's LMG at least (eg. 010 7.62mm DPM LMG, if we accept infantry weapons in this role). Firing LMG from FUG through open top hatches was not different from BRDM-1 with a fixed MG anyway.
704 SU-76M - ending date 12/59 might be correct for the army... but it appears, that 127 of them were still used by Internal Security Corps (KBW) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Security_Corps ), and in 1966 the army took them. There could be the second entry, say class 127 Gun APC (Tracked), wihdrawn by (probably) 1972, with 3-vehicle platoon eg. "Security SPG plt" (or KBW SPG up to 1965 and WOW SPG from 1966).
Speaking of KBW, 550 SU-57 were used after 1945 only by KBW, so they could be the same class.
I was surprised to learn that there was an APC variant of SU-76M: TOSU-76, with a dismounted gun, used by the same formation, until 1972. It could be added, even with the same icon. There is no mention about the armament, but 242 7.62mm DT AAMG was plausible. I suppose it carried 4-5 men. I'd make it class 24 APC (halftrack) - they were used by the same KBW forces as existing 724 Halftrack. There is already a formation 11 Security HTs, which should be extended then (maybe renamed to Security APC).
Edit:
One more significant thing, from other article: 131 MiG-15 - now used from 1/50, but first 5 were delivered in 7/51, and a big batch in 10/51. I don't known when they were ready (no later than 1/52 anyway).
687 Lim-2 - now used until 12/74, but in 1968 there were only 13 left in attack units, so I guess they could go before 12/69 (we have newer Lim-6bis attack planes by that date)
130 Yak-23 - Polish name is Jak-23.
Last edited by Pibwl; December 2nd, 2024 at 05:11 PM..
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OK..... does that mean that the other three "Yak"s in the OOB should be "Jak" ?
Of course. I think I should have written that before... (English pronunciation is the same as Yak).
One more thing. Digging deeper into 2024 article on MiG-15 in Polish aviation I've just found, that only from 1956 oldest MiG-15s were assigned to attack regiments, replacing Il-10s, and followed by Lim-2 - and only from that moment they were modified to drop bombs...
So, I suggest to keep 131 MiG-15 and 685 Lim-1 as strafers only (the difference is only in name, Lim-1 was Polish-built MiG-15, and Lim-2 - MiG-15bis).
Then, we could add MiG-15 with bombs from mid-56 until around 12/68, and make 687 Lim-2 with bombs available from 1/58 until 12/69 or 12/70.
Or, if you don't want to add new unit and multiply useless strafers, we could keep unit 131 as a bomber MiG-15 from mid/56 until 12/68 (Lim-1 would fit a strafer role a year later - or it could become available from 1/52 and pretend to be a MiG - which it technically was).
Sorry for a mess.
One more thing: 130 Yak-23 - withdrawn from combat units in 8/54 (now 12/56).
Last edited by Pibwl; December 3rd, 2024 at 02:54 PM..
Speaking of Il-10, there are Russian monograph books from Aviakollektsya 2004 and 2005.
Poland
136 Il-10 - they were gone by 12/59 (now 12/68!) (confirmed also by Polish sources). It's a detail, but first were delivered in 2/49 (now 1/49).
They were always plain green only (icon 3117 would be better, even with Czech(?) markings). The same for unit 952 Avia B-33.
It's worth to add a variant of Il-10 with two 250 kg bombs, without rockets. There could be also a variant with 4x100 kg.
Czechoslovak OOB: 158 Avia B-33 has Soviet icon, should be 3117. A detail, but according to the Russian book, their units were disbanded in 8/60 (now 12/60), the same for 136 Avia B-33.
As for the latter one, to be precise, Czechoslovakia manufactured B-33 with 4 guns 23 mm from 12/51 only, so they could have appeared from 1/52 at the earliest (now 8/50). Before that Czechoslovakia used Soviet Il-10 with 2 guns 23 mm and 2 MGs, delivered from 8/50.
Romanian OOB: 134 Il-10 Stormovik - Romanian Il-10s are also shown in books as plain green. According to the Russian book, delivered in 3/53 and withdrawn in 1960 (now 1/53 - 12/58)
Bulgarian OOB: 388 Avia B-33 - since they were Avias, the armament was 4x23 mm. I've found no color silhouettes (Bulgarian ones are quite obscure), though I assume, that Czechoslovakia delivered green ones.
North Korea: 130 Il-10 - they should be armed with 2x23 mm and 2 MGs. Undoubtedly also bomber variants were used.
China: 136 Il-10 - they should be armed with 2x23 mm (now 4). Again, always are shown in a plain green color. According to the book, delivered only from 1950 (now 1/46). Undoubtedly also bomber variants were used.
That's all as for now (unless I find something interesting)
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And while you are at it define "green" for Polish aircraft for me exactly...RGB
I would say "They were always plain green only" is incorrect and the only thing wrong with the Polish Icon now is that the grey should be ( perhaps......) a touch lighter and have a hint of blue and the pattern more transverse than longitudinal but that's a lot of tiresome nitpicking........isn't it?
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"You are never to old to rock and roll if you are too young to die".--- What do you expect to be doing when you are 80?
My own interpretaion of MiG-15/17 in various Eastern block states
Also with using license variants PZL Lim and Czechoslovak Aero. Of course Pibwl data are propably more accurate. But Polish Lim were used in Bulgaria ,DDR and Indonesia. Czechoslovak Aero in Czechoslovakia were produced also locally. They were license but with small differences in guns for example Lim's 1 and 2 used NS-23mm instead of typical NR-23mm then in LIM-5 back NR-23mm were used. Also Lim-5P which were aircrafts with onboard radar! in front nose visible on photos. They have only 23mm gun. I also add to OOB Czechoslovak Aero Aero S-104 is variant with radar. Also DDR used Polish build lim's in variants Lim-5 & Lim-6. I used here avaiable icons and photos.
In case of infamous Internal Security Corps (KBW) polish variant of soviets internal troops. Here are photos of TOSU-76 APC and also their Su-76 and Su-57
968 FA-50 - AP cluster bombs (Korean CBU-103) were not bought by Poland, so it should have 4 Mavericks only. It seems, that alternatively 6 x 226 kg Mk 82 bombs can be carried (including GBU-38 JDAM), or even 8 in max variant, not counting central pod reserved for a fuel tank usually (https://fa-50.pl/charakterystyka-uzb...amolotu-fa-50/). There might be the second entry with bombs.
It could also be a fighter-bomber. (to be precise, first two were shown on a parade in 8/23, right after a delivery, but they were commissioned only in 9/23, and I don't know when the crews, which started training afterwards, are combat ready...)
All Su-22M4 - only from late 2015 (say 1/16) Polish Su-22 started to be repainted in a grey camouflage during maintenance. Earlier they were in multi-shade brown and green camo - icons 8492 and 1993 with spread wings look very good. If we won't double all 10 units, they should be in an older camo IMO, because it was their most active and longer period, and I assume, that many remained after 2016 in the old camo for some time. (Just in case you'd want to double all units - which I don't propose, older ones should get lbms: 4742, 4743, 29237, 29473 lbms, while newer ones: 4744, 4745)
Rocket artillery: 974 WR-40 Pl - better name is Langusta Pl
975 Homar Section - HIMARS is actually named Homar-A (American).
976 K239 Chunmoo PL - Chunmoo is named Homar-K (obviously, Korean). However, Poland didn't buy weak 131 mm rockets, but 239 mm CGR-080 export rockets (range 80 km, around 90 kg warhead, apparently HE) (12 on a launcher, so 3x24 seems correct, like US M270). Precise specifications are not known, but it is marketed as roughly the same as US 227 mm M30 GMLRS. The same rocket might be added also to Korean variant (reportedly with a cluster munnition).
First one given to the unit in late 11/23 (now 8/23, when the first completed launchers were tested in Poland) - 1/24 is more realistic date of readiness.
BTW: in Romanian OOB, 171 HIMARS Section - ordered in 2018, but the first delivered and commissioned by 3/21 only (now 1/18). It is truck mounted (lbm 9037).
Last edited by Pibwl; January 23rd, 2025 at 07:41 PM..
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Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Hybrid Mode
