Subjugation not working correctly in v1.78?

[geoschmo]

Well, it is supposed to be strictly based off of score and nothing else. I haven't had them too often, and never managed to get the AI to agree to one. Form your description it definetly sounds as if something isn't quite right. Barbora states is a neutral right? So they shouldn't have any planets in any other systems you don't know about.

I guess just to be sure I would open their turn up and check their score. If your score is higher and yet they are subjugating you there is definetly someting wrong. Whether it's a glitch or a consistant bug, not sure. Either way I'd send it to MM if I were you.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

BING! Lightbulb moment!

Size of empires and score has absolutly no corelation to who is the dominant empire in subjugation or protectorate treaties!!

The only thing that matters is who requested the treaty. The empire requesting the treaty becomes the dominant party in the agreement, the empire accpeting the treaty is the submissive party in the agreement.

This is a total suprise to me. But I checked it in 1.49 and it's the case there as well. I was under the mistaken impression that whichever side requests the subjugation or protectorate wa irrelevant and the relative scores determined who paid the tariffs to whom. I got that impression from reading this in the manual:

Subjugation is where one empire dominates another. The larger empire usually controls the smaller one and limits its interactions with the rest of the universe. In a Subjugation treaty, one empire is the stronger and one is the weaker. The weaker empire is not allowed to form any treaties with other empires. They must also pay 40% of their resources each turn to the stronger empire. The stronger empire will get to see any new vehicle designs created by the weaker empire, and will share in all of the weaker empire's technological discoveries. The treaty can be broken by either empire at any time.

Protectorate is where one empire (the stronger) offers to protect another empire (the weaker) for a modest fee. The weaker empire must pay 20% of their resources each turn to the stronger empire. The stronger empire is "supposed" to protect the weaker empire from any and all enemy threats. The treaty can be broken by either empire at any time.

I think the key here is "The larger empire usually(my emphasis) controls the smaller one and limits its interactions with the rest of the universe." If a smaller empire has the hutzpah to suggest a subjugation to a larger empire, as is apparently the case for Sandstig, then they will receive the tariffs if the treaty is accepted.

Extrodinary. I had no idea. Am I the only one (Besides Sandstig of course ) Suprised by this?

Geoschmo

[Sandstig]

My score is almost 5 million while the Barbora States are at less than 1/4 of 1,250,000. I'm basing this off of the graph in comparisons.

I sent a treaty of subjugation to the Primean Federation (my empire) when I hopped into the controls of the Barbora State and the results came out the same. It really does seem to be a bug.

[Sandstig]

Sorry, posted before I saw your Last post.

Anyway, it appears that it's either Malfador made it so that you could never subjugate neutral empires or this really is a bug. I tried sending a treaty from either side, and both ended up with the Primean Federation (the galaxy's dominant empire in terms of ships, resources and score) being subjugated to the Bobroba States.

[ October 14, 2002, 15:01: Message edited by: Sandstig ]

[geoschmo]

No, I don't agree, or I am not seeing the same thing you are. What I am seeing is whoever offers the treaty ends up in the superior position in the treaty. And it has nothing to do with being a neutral or not.

If you aren't seeing the same thing I don't know what the difference is. I confirmed it in 1.78 and 1.49.

Geoschmo

[TerranC]

Same thing with Protectorate also BTW.

[Sandstig]

It must have been a bug. I counter-offered on their proposal for a Trade and Research Alliance with a Subjugation Treaty, they accepted, and now they're paying me tariffs.