IDF OOB project.

[gingertanker]

Magach Chaos 2!

Correction to my previous post which I cant seem to be able to edit:

Obsolete tank unit for Mag'ach 5 should be avilable from 1980 and not 1970. my finger slipped.

And back to the frying pan(no joke when talking about Pattons):

Units 026 to 029 Mag'ach Blazer
These, I assume, are meant to represent Magach 3 and 5 tanks with Blazer armor, as seen from the early 80s. This is a good idea, the Magach 3 and 5 are nearly identical there is no need to have 2 different units for them with Blazer( also as we dont know the end date of their service in reserves and can only guess). Howerver-
Unit 026 and 027 seem to be identical to me aside from their ammo load. I very much doubt there was any change in ammo loads in the IDF during that time. Moreover ammo loads vary according to sector and operations. I suggest the units be merged to save space.

Unit 029 is available until 1999, extremely unlikely date. Though the IDF had standing Magach brigades past that year, by that time we had cut down our armor corps significantly(in the mid 80s and again in the early 90s), and had received many M60 and M60A1 tanks. I suggest Unit 029 removed, and unit 028 set an end date of 1986. However, as there were probably 1,200 M48 of all types in the IDF, the reserve units with blazer probably survived until the early-mid 90s. Obsolete tank units should be made to reflect this, with the last one ending around 1993(conservative. It might have been 1988 and might have been 1995. I cant find it).

Units 030 and 031 Mag'ach 6A The Magach 6A is the M60A1 with elongated turret. the tanks were sold to Israel in 1971-1972. They were converted to Magach 6B in 1980. I think this doesn't justify two separate units. Suggest putting the stats from 031 in slot 030 and giving start date of 1/1972 with end date 12/80. An obsolete tank unit for reserves should have roughly the same end date, with a start date of 1974 or so...

Slot 031 can now be used for Magach 6C:the M60A3 supplied to Israel from 1985 to 1990. It should be identical to the original M60A3 but with IR. Availability should be 1985 to 1993 in standing units, and a corresponding obsolete tank unit for reserve units available from 1985 to the late 1990s.

Units 033 and 034 Magach 6B should have ERA.

Units 035, 036 and 037 Magach 6M 035 and 036 seem Identical to me...Am I wrong? Suggest they be united and renamed Magach 6R(early 6M). Should have LRF. Use start date from 035 and end date from 036.
Unit 036 can be moved to 035. This is the REAL 6M...The 6M had not only ERA, but a very good fire control system(a high 20s or even 30 for FCS is warranted)and LRF. Slot 36 can now be used for the past 1986 Magach 6M, with improved engine (900hp) and hence greater speed).
I think that as far as obsolete units, only one for the Magach 6R and 6M is needed. This should start around 1986 for comfort(to have only one and not 2) and should be available until late 90s. It should be a copy of the new unit now in 036 Mag'ach 6M.



God this is really hard to do. Luckily I am almost done with the tanks. Only a few more Magach variants in the next post, and than Merks.

[gingertanker]

Magach Chaos- The End!

Score. Found a detailed Hebrew explanation about the Magachs. too late for my last post..but now we can rock and roll on the rest.

As for my last post I mentioned that the Magach 6M should have a high FCS figure. I failed to understand how high. The 6M in fact had the Nahal Oz FCS. This is the same as Merkava 2b and Magach 7. In the OOB these are different. I suggest making them all the same. The FCS figure for Magach 6M, All Magach 7 variants, and all Merkava 2b should probably be around 38. I know this changes alot of things but it reflects reality better, as you will understand from the next changes I propose.

Mag'ach Gal units 038 and 039
Should be renamed Mag'ach 6B Gal.In reality these were Magach 6B given the Gal FCS. This is not represented, as the current unit has FCS 32...Gal is better than Nahal Oz, and is the base for the Baz FCS(as in Merkava Mk 3 Baz). These units should be given a FCS rating of 40(assuming my previous recommendation to change FCS on Merk 2b and Magach 6M+7 is accepted), showing their advantage over the Merk 2b and Mag'ach 7 when it comes to FCS. Its worth mentioning that even during my time in service in 2006-2008, the 6B Gal was considered a "sniper", and usually reserve units with these tanks hit better than standing units with Merkava 2b.

As far as dates, the end date for this should be 2004.Obsolete tank unitd should be added for the 6B Gal, running from 1988 to 2014(status is currently uncertain for the future).

An interesting unit which does not exist in game is the Magach 6B Baz. It saw the replacement of the Gal system with the Baz system. If brought into the game, it should only exist as an obsolete tank from the mid 90s until 2014. The 6B Baz was only introduced to reserve units. This should have the same FCS rating as Merkava 3 Baz- 48.

Unit 040 Mag'ach Batash This should be the 6B Gal already discussed with an improved armor design. However in the OOB the only difference I could spot was a change in ammo load. In reality the change in protection included both passive and reactive armor improvements. The units armor stats should be improved to represent this. End date for the unit should be 2004, and an obsolete tank unit should be made with start date around 2004 and end date 2014.

Unit 041 Mag'ach 7 Alef In the name of uniformity, I would change name to Mag'ach 7A. As I mentioned I would up the FCS to 38. End date should be set to 2003 when the 500th armored brigade was cut.

Unit 042 Mag'ach 7 Gimel Again, should be renamed Mag'ach 7G. FCS should be 38. End date should be 2003 like 041.

For both 041 and 042 there are doubles in 634 and 635. The class for these doubles was left 59, should be made 102 to allow the purchase as reserve units.

NO MORE MAGACHS! Hurrra!


Next post will be on Tiran tanks. I would do it now but this post is already very long.

[gingertanker]

Tiran tanks

found a good, but unfortunately hebrew source for this topic:
http://www.yadlashiryon.com/vf/ib_it...4/sefer274.pdf

This is about the first Tiran brigade in the IDF, its actions in the Yom Kippur war, and also a small section about the Tirans after Yom Kippur. This makes it very easy to fix dates and other issues.

The first thing to note about all of these units, is that if we maintain the current way the IDF oob works, that reserve formations use the obsolete tank unit class, than all of these need to be change to obsolete tanks. All Tirans were used by reserve units. IF(and personally I think this is a big if) IDF reserve tank formations need to have a -5 moral and exp modifier, than so should the Tiran units.

Unit 043 Tiran 4 were captured T54 tanks with minimal changes. These were all converted by summer of 73 to Tiran 4Sh. End date should be 8/1973 and not as it is now. Some Tiran 4Sh(those built off of T54A) had no electric stabilizer, setting them apart from the Tiran 5Sh discussed latter. I am not sure if this warrents adding the Tiran 4Sh as a separate unit. If it does- It should be identical to Tiran 5Sh, aside from having 1 stabilizer instead of 2.

Unit 044 Tiran 5 Should have end date of 8/1973, for same reason as unit 043.

Units 045,046,047 Tiran 5Sh The Tiran 5Sh originally was a very small conversion- replacement of the 100mm to the 105mm M68 Shrir main gun. Unlike it is portrayed in the game, the FCS was not changed. The FCS stat should be reduced to 5. The smoke discharger should be removed(it was added later)

Units 049,050,051 Some Tiran 5Sh were given a second round of conversions in the late 70s. I suggest the name be changed to Tiran 5Sh M. (M for Meshupar=improved in hebrew). The improvements included- smoke dischargers, ERA armor, fire supression system and other things but NOT an FCS change. The FCS for these should remain 5. No LRF was added! As hard as it is to believe the IDF never put new FCS on its captured T-55 tanks. It was planned and a few prototypes were made(T-55 Samovar), but was never done on great scale. I would also up the smoke dischargers to 2. In addition, an extra 7.62 machinegun was mounted, so the tank should have 2 7.62 machinguns apart from the coax, and no 12.7mm. As for end dates, the T-55 was being taken out of service in the mid to late 80s. none were around in 1993. Therefor unit 051 should be deleted.

Unit 053 Tiran 6 and 054 Tiran 6 Blazer unit 053 is a good representation of the T-62 in Israeli service. Only 100 or less were used. No major conversions were made at all. Even the coax mg was the russian one and not as in game(but this is a minute detail) The end date for 053 should be 12/1992. Unit 054 is redundant. While experiments were made, there was no major installment of Blazer on T-62 tanks in the IDF, certainly no change in range finder. AND MOST certainly no TI for the Tiran 6. I suggest deleting unit 054 and keping only 053 with date extended to 12/1992.


Next we dive into the fantastic world of merks and their endless developments.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by gingertanker

Magach Chaos 2!

Correction to my previous post which I cant seem to be able to edit:

Obsolete tank unit for Mag'ach 5 should be avilable from 1980 and not 1970. my finger slipped.

Could you give me a hint how long they should be kept in service ??

[gingertanker]

Originally Posted by DRG

Could you give me a hint how long they should be kept in service ??

Early 90s would be my best guess.

so what happens to unit 32....... is it OK ? I don't think so based on the changes you asked for with the others

Magach 6 Gimel, or 6C as per the oob format right now, were M60A3 tanks delivered to Israel directly from USA stockpiles in europe. They should be identical to M60A3 in its USA form, only with TI. I actually did mention that in the Magach post. So actually, I think the unit is OK(!!)

I am going to maintain the Tiran units separate from the " obsolete tank " class ( looking to change that UC to "Reserve Tank" )

Understand RE Tiran units should have the same moral and exp modifier and I also understand your " big if " reservations about -5 but the Israeli OOB already has one of the highest ratings. Do you REALLY think reservists are no different than regular units ?

The experience -5 is rather okey, considering it represents not only actual combat experience but level of routine training. The -5 moral is odd to me but I can understand it as well. I think your solution is very good. In any case as you mention the IDF oob is very strong this is almost a non issue.



A Note: IDK how I wrote 54 for the Merkava MK 3 ammo load- the number is 46, as I mentioned in the same post(i guess i was doing that late at night or something?!)

[DRG]

Originally Posted by gingertanker

Magach Chaos 2!


Slot 031 can now be used for Magach 6C:the M60A3 supplied to Israel from 1985 to 1990. It should be identical to the original M60A3 but with IR. Availability should be 1985 to 1993 in standing units, and a corresponding obsolete tank unit for reserve units available from 1985 to the late 1990s.

Units 033 and 034 Magach 6B should have ERA.

so what happens to unit 32....... is it OK ? I don't think so based on the changes you asked for with the others

[DRG]

Originally Posted by gingertanker

Magach Chaos!

Yep....

Originally Posted by gingertanker

Unit 023 Mag'ach 5, Unit 024 Mag'ach 5:
Start date for 023 should be 1979, Mag'ach 5 was the M48A5, only sold to Israel that year...Obsolete tank unit should exist from 1970 at the least.

Okey so far for today, I will try to post next on the rest of the Mag'ach units in the OOB(there are alot).

Start date was 1969 with an end date of 12/71 all you tell me is to change the start date to 10 years later but nothing about end date......should I just guess it's 10 years later as well ? Also you give me unit 23 start date but nothing about 24 and if the start date is 1979 then the gun ( ammo ) should be upgraded to w27 so this fix created more questions than it solved

Don

[gingertanker]

@Don
Also at this point as this clearly becoming a long undertaking(as expected) is there anything in the format of my posts that needs changing? I have looked forward on the OOB. There are a few dozen things more...Some are minor and major date issues(like decades off), some are units that never existed in the IDF, etc. So this is a long ordeal I just want to make sure it will be easy for you to use this thread....

Amit.

[DRG]

No, it doesn't seem so, I've only just been looking them over quickly before putting them on the list but all in all it's looks good

Don

[gingertanker]

THE LAST TANK

Okey now we get into the Merkava 4...I am aware that alot of work has been done by others here.

I do have some ideas though, here they are:

Units 067 and 068 Merkava Mk 4

Ammo load should be 50 for main gun.

Unit 069 Merkava Mk4b
* AFAIK and according to most hebrew sources this should be named Merkava Mk4M (again Meshupar=Improved).
*More importantly, the changes made to fit the LAHAT have screwed up the weapons on this unit. The coaxial on Merkava 4, as with all IDF tanks, is the 7.62mm FN-MAG/M240. The 12.7mm is an optional coaxial. If we must choose one, I would go with the real, internal coaxial(this is true for unit 066 as well, I missed it).
*ammo load aside from the LAHAT should be increased to 44 total.
*I think that a identical unit without the LAHAT should be made. but this is just my opinion. To allow the use of Merk 4 with CIWS but no LAHAT.

Two Mk4 units are currently missing:
* Merkava Mk4TWMP
*Obsolete tank unit for Mk4. Availability should be from ~2006 all the way to 2020.