EA Agartha - the game's red-headed stepchild (CBM)

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by thejeff

I know Bless claims to be Prec 100, but I've never completely trusted that.
I've definitely had solitary thugs miss trying to bless themselves. (Jotun Jarls, I'm looking at you.)
Does the AoE not always include the actual target square? It's the only way I can match 100 prec with reality.

As I understand it, that's correct: AoE is not guaranteed to include any particular square, including the target square. This is why you can fail to bless yourself, even though at zero range you're within the "auto-hit" distance for any positive Prec. I suppose you could double-check this by watching a bunch of fights with a Shadow Brand and seeing if the square attacked is always affected by the leeching darkness effect--I've never done so because for me the issue isn't in doubt. But I could be wrong...

-Max

[chrispedersen]

The game uses a fixed template for AoE spells.
I don't recall the exact template.. but for example aoe 5
does not do
3
14
25

rather its something like
2x
513
x4

If units fall into those x's - they will be missed. I don't believe it has anything to do with precision - but rather deliberate games in the template.

[MaxWilson]

It's not fixed, it's randomly generated on each casting. (Or maybe the template is fixed, but the actual effect varies. Is that what you meant?) Watch Strength of Giants for instance--it has a different shape each time you cast it but it's always approximately 5x5.

-Max

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

As I understand it, that's correct: AoE is not guaranteed to include any particular square, including the target square. This is why you can fail to bless yourself, even though at zero range you're within the "auto-hit" distance for any positive Prec. I suppose you could double-check this by watching a bunch of fights with a Shadow Brand and seeing if the square attacked is always affected by the leeching darkness effect--I've never done so because for me the issue isn't in doubt. But I could be wrong...

-Max

Weapons and spells work very differently in dom3, so I don't see the point in the comparison,.. certainly shadow brand doesn't cast a spell, it just has a secondaryeffectalways which is similar to a spell. Same with false fetters on that morning star.

[MaxWilson]

I didn't know that shadow brand doesn't use the same effect as the spell. In that case you'd have to test it by modding someone to be Prec 100 or so and giving him a single opponent at a time on the smallest battlefield (via Assassination?). If he ever misses it was because of the AoE.

-Max

[vfb]

Thanks Squirrelloid and Chris! You've inspired me to have another shot at this sad nation. It's probably fitting that their race is doomed, they suck so bad.

Anyway, I took a Dom6 W4E6S4N4 awake Ageless Olm. I don't seem to get that many less freespawn Olm Spawn than with higher dominion. S4 is kind of playing with fire, but he's a Golem Summoner, not a fighter. Sloth-3, Heat-3, Death-2, Luck-3, Magic-1, because Death-3 just gave me way too many plagues even with Luck-3. I decided to pretty much stick with the Water Oracle thug plan, but just go with Awe instead of a E9 bless. So, instead of Const-2, I needed Const-4.

I reached Const-4 in late winter year 1, and had a pathetic 9 provinces from my little Trog/indy/OlmSpawn/SealGuard army. That turn I forged frost brand and a gleaming shield, and finished researching to Alt-2. I would have made a girdle too, but that meant I'd miss Alt-2. I started site-searching with my god about halfway through the first year. He'll probably be pretty decent in combat once I get Conj-4 Alt-3, but that's a ways off. And he can eventually GOR Olm Spawn for the low low price of just 15N. It's a free E1H2+?FEDW mage! "Free" in this case means 15N though.

Anyway, my DivineBlessing/Stoneskin/HolyAvenger Brand/Shield thug passed his first test with flying colors, so in mid-spring, I was the proud owner of a whopping 12 territories.

Alt-3 and I can cast Ironskin instead, and with Summon Earthpower and a Girdle, I could probably even cast Quicken Self. Woo hoo!

Edit: Oh jeez! I never noticed before that Seal Guards are map-move 1. That's awful. And so is Ogon! What's up with that? He's not even wearing anything.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by vfb

Thanks Squirrelloid and Chris! You've inspired me to have another shot at this sad nation. It's probably fitting that their race is doomed, they suck so bad.

Anyway, I took a Dom6 W4E6S4N4 awake Ageless Olm. I don't seem to get that many less freespawn Olm Spawn than with higher dominion. S4 is kind of playing with fire, but he's a Golem Summoner, not a fighter. Sloth-3, Heat-3, Death-2, Luck-3, Magic-1, because Death-3 just gave me way too many plagues even with Luck-3. I decided to pretty much stick with the Water Oracle thug plan, but just go with Awe instead of a E9 bless. So, instead of Const-2, I needed Const-4.

I reached Const-4 in late winter year 1, and had a pathetic 9 provinces from my little Trog/indy/OlmSpawn/SealGuard army. That turn I forged frost brand and a gleaming shield, and finished researching to Alt-2. I would have made a girdle too, but that meant I'd miss Alt-2. I started site-searching with my god about halfway through the first year. He'll probably be pretty decent in combat once I get Conj-4 Alt-3, but that's a ways off. And he can eventually GOR Olm Spawn for the low low price of just 15N. It's a free E1H2+?FEDW mage! "Free" in this case means 15N though.

Anyway, my DivineBlessing/Stoneskin/HolyAvenger Brand/Shield thug passed his first test with flying colors, so in mid-spring, I was the proud owner of a whopping 12 territories.

Alt-3 and I can cast Ironskin instead, and with Summon Earthpower and a Girdle, I could probably even cast Quicken Self. Woo hoo!

Edit: Oh jeez! I never noticed before that Seal Guards are map-move 1. That's awful. And so is Ogon! What's up with that? He's not even wearing anything.

Is it CBM vfb?

You can make a pretty respectable thug by vineshield, demon whip, bracer, bracer, earth armor.

All at con-2. With legions of steel, you get your 40 prot. and an aoe weapon. all at a cost of less than 10 gems + hammer.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

I didn't know that shadow brand doesn't use the same effect as the spell. In that case you'd have to test it by modding someone to be Prec 100 or so and giving him a single opponent at a time on the smallest battlefield (via Assassination?). If he ever misses it was because of the AoE.

-Max

Provided you're talking about a spell, yeah, that would be a way to show how aoe can miss the target square even at 100 prec. Shadowbrand has nothing to do with it though.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Provided you're talking about a spell, yeah, that would be a way to show how aoe can miss the target square even at 100 prec. Shadowbrand has nothing to do with it though.

I created a game as Yomi, hired a Dai Oni, scripted (Bless, retreat), entered an indy province. Turned on the grid and watched the animation.

Here's some debug log:

deploy_side 1934 at 6 15 (w60 h30)
...
castspell: cnr142 spl754 (Blessing) vis0 x7 y16 spldmg1
blastsqr: unr1934 x7 y16 aoe1 dmg1 eff10 spc1086373888 as10217 al9
blastsqr: unr1934 x7 y17 aoe1 dmg1 eff10 spc1086373888 as10217 al9
blastsqr: unr1934 x8 y17 aoe1 dmg1 eff10 spc1086373888 as10217 al9
blastsqr: unr1934 x8 y16 aoe1 dmg1 eff10 spc1086373888 as10217 al9
blastsqr: unr1934 x6 y16 aoe1 dmg1 eff10 spc1086373888 as10217 al9

Dai Oni hit his target, but the dummy cast Bless at his non-sacred wolf. The area-5 missed the Dai Oni. Jeez, Dai Oni, get a frikking brain!

I tried it with a H1 Van and when he is solo, he never misses himself:

castspell: cnr140 spl754 (Blessing) vis0 x6 y16 spldmg1
vis 0 xvis 0
blastsqr: unr2051 x6 y16 aoe1 dmg1 eff10 spc1086373888 as10217 al9
...

The first square blasted is always the target, so I think it does not miss. But unless the unit is all alone (including no batsums), you can't guarantee what he's going to target.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Is it CBM vfb?

You can make a pretty respectable thug by vineshield, demon whip, bracer, bracer, earth armor.

All at con-2. With legions of steel, you get your 40 prot. and an aoe weapon. all at a cost of less than 10 gems + hammer.

I have not had a single Oracle get so much as an affliction, when wielding just a Brand+Gleaming Shield. He can self-buff, or if there are two, one can bless while the other adds in Holy Avenger. They can solo medium-difficulty indies. For tougher indies I like to add a girdle. But that's 2 or 3 items versus 5.

I have 3 hammers going at the end of the first year, and forge (Frost Brand, Gleaming Shield, Girdle) or (Fire Brand, Gleaming Shield, Girdle) almost every month. I don't have the N income to make Vine Shields.

I killed off my Olm foolishly in my first game, so I ran it again and got a bit better results. This time I kitted out the Olm first with (Frost Brand, Gleaming Shield, Girdle), and sent him off to fight/search as my first thug. Even at an item forged a month with the Forge Lord, I like the Olm better because of lower cost, better research, better bless, better site searching, and dom summons. Plus it's thematic. And he can make Golems later.

LoS is fine for casting on a bunch of Seal Guards, and if I accidentally hit a thug I've got in the army I won't be sad about it. But it's too costly in terms of fatigue to self-buff with.

Demon Whips are fine until you run into higher protection indies or Aby or Cavemen or Elephants. Oracles have good strength, so it's nice to let them pound on the enemy. They can actually hit with brands too, even with zero stars and not quickened they have 13 attack with a brand.

Vine Shields are const-4, maybe you are thinking of Eye Shields? How are you going to get that much N by the time you've got const-2 though? And how many turns are you taking to forge?

I also don't like the buff fatigue expense that Earth Armor imposes. E6 plus a girdle already gets me into scary fatigue territory (~33) when I'm doing something like (D.Bless,Summ Earth,Ironskin,Quicken Self), wearing an enc-1 shield.