Mod: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.52 available

[rdonj]

Not quite. There are 6 hero slots, and 2 multihero slots. If you wanted 8 specific heroes you'd probably have to make two of them summons.

[LumenPlacidum]

Eh, the chances of getting more than 8 multiheroes is pretty slim. Maybe I'll just make a "Ringwraith" multihero to represent each of the others. Not like any but one has a name anyway.

[rdonj]

Yeah, I don't think that would be a problem at all. The chance of getting even 4 heroes in the same game is so small it might as well be nonexistant.

[kianduatha]

Originally Posted by LumenPlacidum

Not like any but one has a name anyway.

Lies! I remember Andunaphel the Quiet, Ren the Unclean, Khamul the Easterling, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath of Dir, Uvatha the Horseman, Dwar of Waw, and Ji Indur Dawndeath.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by kianduatha

Lies! I remember Andunaphel the Quiet, Ren the Unclean, Khamul the Easterling, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath of Dir, Uvatha the Horseman, Dwar of Waw, and Ji Indur Dawndeath.

Too bad only Khamul is an official name. Not that I oppose the use of the other names.

Of course, only the Witchking was actually in Angmar...

[LumenPlacidum]

That's why I was thinking it would be best if the others were heroes. They have to "arrive at your city, ready to fight for your cause" because they weren't there previously. Consider it Sauron sending reinforcements .

[HoneyBadger]

I'm pretty excited about this mod. I'm a big fan of Tolkien and thought I'd put my 2c in about the Heroes vs Summons debate.

Please feel free to ignore them .

Originally Posted by LumenPlacidum

A little research into Tolkien mythos indicates that the Witch King was essentially on his own as a Nazgul until Angmar was destroyed and he fled to the Morgul Vale, when he met up with the other 8 ringwraiths. As such, perhaps he should be alone as a unique summon for Angmar.

I was thinking about this, and it would (to me, anyway) be really neat if each of the 9 ringwraiths was a unique summon. That's something Tolkien never got around to. Only 2 of the ringwraiths even have names. This is an interesting Nation by itself, but adding a bunch of unique summons I think would make it stand out, not only as a Tolkien-based Nation, but even compared to all the Vanilla and Mod Nations already out there.

Also, actual magic users are very rare in Middle Earth, so having the Ring Wraiths and Pretender as your main/more or less only casters, with heroes providing additional spellpower, would make the Nation very interesting to play, I think.



As heroes, you'd only get 6 of them, at best, and I think there's plenty of other options here for heroes/multiheroes.

Suggestion for possible Heroes: Saruman (E3/F2/A1/W1/N1/B1/H1, elderly but self-healing, 25% forging bonus), Mouth of Sauron (high leadership, some magical ability: S2/D2/B2? possibly H4?), Gothmog (high leadership, high morale, possible Boldog--see below), Shagrat (very large, extremely tough orc with very high Prot and possibly even Awe--he won the battle of Cirith Ungol and he's got the mithril coat), Grond (construct with high Seige bonus, produces Mountain Trolls), Corsair Lord of Ships (excellent Sailing, could have a secondform that rides a Mumakil, strong Banner in either form, could occasionally produce Mumakil-riding Black Corsairs.).

Suggestion for Multiheroes: Mordor Troll--huge, relatively intelligent, very nasty troll with spiked armour, Boldog--largest, meanest, smartest orcs around, might even have some magical ability (from Wikipedia: Boldog (…) is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs. Melkor had corrupted many spirits — some great as Sauron, or less as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive Orcs.)

It seems to me that, considering that Sauron is just a disembodied spirit at this point in time, instead of giving Angmar the Witch-King as a starting commander (The Witch-King in the books doesn't really show up until late in the game), you might possibly give them a "Sauron's Shadow" unit, which would have immortality, etheriality, and a patrol bonus, but no physical stats (1 hp, 0 Str, etc.), only 1 mapmove, and no actual magic, but the ability to lead your mindless trolls, and the sun-fearing varieties of orcs (since "the Uruk-hai and Olog-hai could fight in the sunlight, as long as they were under Sauron's Shadow.").

Speaking of uruk-hai and olog-hai, have you considered that they might be a Summons? possibly Blood/Nature, along the lines of Crossbreeding?

By the way, do you have any intention to include Shelob? Maybe as a Unique, in place of a starting scout? Could be (appropriately, I think) a good early Rush deterrant. You could make her a stealthy cannibal (so that she eats orcs) with no Leadership.

[LumenPlacidum]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

I was thinking about this, and it would (to me, anyway) be really neat if each of the 9 ringwraiths was a unique summon. That's something Tolkien never got around to. Only 2 of the ringwraiths even have names. This is an interesting Nation by itself, but adding a bunch of unique summons I think would make it stand out, not only as a Tolkien-based Nation, but even compared to all the Vanilla and Mod Nations already out there.

Well, I'm sort of making the assumption that the other ringwraiths are about in the world, but are not tasked with any duties in bringing down the kingdom of Arnor. This leaves wide open the concept of the Nazgul being unique summons, which would be perfectly fine to me, where the summon calls its services, but doesn't create it on the spot. This is quite possible as a way of going about getting them, but it also puts a little more control over them in the hands of the player in a time when they were more or less Sauron's only powerful actors in the world, since he had not taken shape.

I was more inclined to have the Nazgul being unique summons (probably at low level conjuration) in the Late Age version of the nation, which I wish to do after this one, which would be modeled on Mordor, not Angmar.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Also, actual magic users are very rare in Middle Earth, so having the Ring Wraiths and Pretender as your main/more or less only casters, with heroes providing additional spellpower, would make the Nation very interesting to play, I think.

I intend for other magic users to be weak, but I didn't really consider that it would be playable to not have any access to other mages. I'd probably have to improve the unique magic users significantly, especially in the research side of things. Or, I could have some cheap magicless commanders with very low research values and a strong death income for skull mentors or something. It's something to ponder. I would very much like to reflect the idea that mages in Middle Earth were rare.

However, in the Lord of the Rings, when the fellowship was traveling south from Rivendell, they were fallen upon by a pack of wargs, led by some sort of magic-using wolf, if I recall. It was pretty much the most blatant use of magic present in the books (Gandalf calling down lightning strikes and such). I need to look it up again, but if that's the case, the magic stuff could be more prevalent on the evil side of things.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Suggestion for possible Heroes: Saruman, Mouth of Sauron, Gothmog, Shagrat, Grond, Corsair Lord of Ships.

Suggestion for Multiheroes: Mordor Troll, Boldog

Those are great ideas, but I think they're better ideas for the Mordor concept for late age, since they're all from that time period. I particularly like having Grond as a heroic construct that generates trolls. I'd probably give it a high standard ability too.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

It seems to me that, considering that Sauron is just a disembodied spirit at this point in time, instead of giving Angmar the Witch-King as a starting commander (The Witch-King in the books doesn't really show up until late in the game)

Well, as far as I know, the books don't go into Angmar terribly much, and the Silmarillion more than the actual trilogy. It seems to me that the Witch King was the founder and ruler of this kingdom all throughout its life if war against Arnor. The fact of the Witch King's presence all through that time period is the reason I'm including him as the starting commander. Though, the different playing dynamic of having such a powerful, unique, and immortal commander early on who represents a sizable chunk of your nation's access to magic is also interesting to me.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

you might possibly give them a "Sauron's Shadow" unit, which would have immortality, ethereality, and a patrol bonus, but no physical stats (1 hp, 0 Str, etc.), only 1 mapmove, and no actual magic, but the ability to lead your mindless trolls, and the sun-fearing varieties of orcs (since "the Uruk-hai and Olog-hai could fight in the sunlight, as long as they were under Sauron's Shadow.").

I do really like this idea, and that's what I'm trying to get at for the trolls. They cannot survive the light of day, so they need to be led by someone who can extend the shadow over them as they go. I dearly wish there was a mechanic that I could use to make them die when not in friendly dominion, because the dominion spread mechanic for them would be perfect. Also, weren't Uruk-hai specifically the orcs that didn't particularly mind being out in the sun? I didn't think they needed a shadow at all, hence Saruman's army of them.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Speaking of uruk-hai and olog-hai, have you considered that they might be a Summons? possibly Blood/Nature, along the lines of Crossbreeding?

I hadn't considered that, but again it makes sense for a Mordor nation, and I do like the idea. I have no idea if there were uruk-hai and olog-hai in the northern parts of the Misty Mountains in that time period. Perhaps Angmar could also have access to the spells, but not have any convenient mages who can cast them, like many of the national spells that get inherited from previous eras.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

By the way, do you have any intention to include Shelob? Maybe as a Unique, in place of a starting scout? Could be (appropriately, I think) a good early Rush deterrant. You could make her a stealthy cannibal (so that she eats orcs) with no Leadership.

I had considered adding Shelob when/if I do Mordor. That's one reason why I had been asking about whether it's possible to mod events. I think Shelob would be fun as one of those indie attack events. She strikes and claims one of your provinces as her own, and is a nasty SC alone. Having her as a starting scout is also quite possible.

Edit: the sprite that I made for the witch king doesn't look quite so dark and homogeneous in the actual game:

[HoneyBadger]

The sprite looks really good!


The problem I see with getting this guy from the beginning is that, by the second round, you've already Prophetized him (not that you really need to, since he's Sacred, but it'll let him self-bless, give him access to all the other Holy spells--including one that grants retributive damage to any unit that actually hits him--spreads Dominion, and grants extra hp, att, def, mr) and slapped black plate on him, making him a perfect Rusher, or just a perfect Indie-killer. And you don't have to worry about getting him killed or wounded, since he's immortal.

Waiting 2 more rounds gives him a black shield and a black helmet, neither of which will encumber him, since he's undead, solving that pesky archer problem.

Speaking of Bless, I'd do everything I could to give this guy a Fire 9/Water 9/Astral 4 bless (he's got 3 attacks, afterall, his Att's a little low, and he's worth the MR boost), giving him atleast 4 attacks a round, at a base Att 18, and Def 22, and 18 MR, plus whatever the prophetizing gets you.

If that becomes too expensive (not sure why it would, since this guy's the starting army to end all starting armies, who needs Production, or income?), Fire 9 + Astral 4 will get the job done.

Fire vulnerability sounds like a problem, except it isn't, because you've quickly forged him a ring of fire resistance as soon as it becomes a problem, and he's got cold resistance and natural undead poison resistance. Shock resistance isn't so far behind, since there's a number of forgeable items for that, including and especially Copper Plate, which takes care of Shock, and does even more additional retributive damage.

With Fear +4 (+14, with the Horror Helmet he can forge by himself), Etherialness, Twist Fate, the Luck he'll soon be able to cast on himself, and the high Prot I just mentioned (20 or so), what, besides an SC Pretender, is going to have a chance of stopping this guy in the first year? How about the 2nd year, when he's got a real army behind him?

An army of Shades and Shade Beasts, Banes, Black Servants, and Longdeads, by the way, led by Mound Kings, with a host of Revenant researchers. With this guy to get your Deathmill rolling, forget about your National recruits. Undead don't cost any upkeep, don't eat, don't age, etc.

At the end of the 2nd year, having used him to ravage the countryside, and now using him to finely crush anyone left standing, you're going to be collecting plenty of Astral Pearls from all the site-searching you'll want him to do (infact, taking the time to do site-searching might be the only thing slowing him down. It's worth the time, since high Astral + high Death = win), and since this is one unit that's actually worth empowering, even Mind Hunt isn't going to reliably stop him.

And if you think he's nasty now, just wait till you hit Soul Vortex and Const 6.


It's not just that he's good in the early game, it's that he's very very good, and keeps getting exponentially better throughout the game, and practically by the month. With a good Pretender to back him up (a Cyclops, Blood Fountain, or Great Sage would do quite nicely), he might as well be a walking Nation all by himself. As a prophet, I'm not convinced he even needs his home Province, so long as you carefully monitor your Dominion.

I think having this guy around from round 1 would change not just this Nation's strategy, but the strategies of everyone he's going to fight. Pretenders become SC Killers, magic weapons, priests, and Dom Pushing are priorities, and nobody except the Witch King bothers with basic PD at all.

[kianduatha]

Not really any worse than starting with a Prince of Death. The same things that take him out will deal with this guy--and he doesn't fly. If you want to spend 400 design points to help one unit(no sacred recruitabless) that's easily counterable with death, astral or blood...I guess you could go after Eriu! After putting both air and nature magic on your pretender and forging a ring of tamed lightning and snake ring(with no national income in either), you can watch as you lose because you have one thug who can take out province defense, and he has a dozen.

If nothing else...people will realize that your Witch King can only be in one place at once--which means you're dead meat the second you commit yourself against one enemy. You cannot afford to ignore your nationals.

It does make this nation really different from other ones, but it's not any more game-changing as starting near someone who has elephants. If it happens, you grab some counters. End of story. I can't think of a middle-age nation that doesn't have counters within reach, unless you planned from the beginning to go after Eriu.

His purpose is to jumpstart you against indies so you can leverage your inferior nationals and get some momentum for your first war. He's powerful, but not against a prepared foe. He's a ridiculously powerful raider, but not a viable front line.