Oh...my....GODS!!!

[Miles]

Originally posted by Zen:
Considering when you balance for MP you balance for SP as well but the opposite is not true.

It is not true in either direction. However, the Dom2 result has been quite pleasing.

I can't quite see the big stir from people crying "Oh it's never about SP, it's all MP" when your problem (Making out of control pretenders) was fixed within 2 days after the patch release by a 3rd Party while retaining the MP balance of not having cheaters.

Well. It is not fixed for >ME<. The fix is a Windows executable. I use Linux. But more to the point, your term 'out of control pretenders' illustrates the real problem. In my single-player games, I can assure you that those pretenders never did anything I didn't wish them to. I just wish that they would do more. And I miss them. IT IS NOT THE SAME AS MULTIPLAYER.

It's MP, Modability, Balance, Customer Support, etc, etc that keep people playing the game and more importantly buying the game.

Please don't think that I dislike the game. I love it. However, you have to realize the it doesn't really have singleplayer. It is ALWAYS multiplayer. Sometimes you play with humans. Sometimes you play with AI's. It works REALLY well, when the AI's pass the Turing test and are indistinguishable from humans. But, when the AI's fail the test, playing without humans can suck.

It would really help to provide better singleplayer crutches so we don't lose huge numbers of customers.

Modding has done wonders already for me. I am having a ball creating a custom Nation. I love the 'poke-in-the-eye' maps. They introduce variety and newness to gameplay.

However, both seem to be a response to fundamental problems in single-user play.

I guess I am just greedy. Still, I am sure that I am not alone. I am sure that the majority of the purchasers of Dom2 will never do multiplay OR post to this forum.

Miles

[Dekent]

MoM is single player only (without a very funky workaround) and it is still widely played by TBS fans. Multiplay is NOT where its at, the vast majority of people are single player fans and will always be single player fans, especially in this genre.

Another example would be Warcraft 3, sure it has great multiplayer, even better then Dom 2,but most people buy it JUST for its single player and never touch battlenet.

Single player CAN sell games and keep selling em if it is done right. Much more so then multiplay. I'd wager that if this game had a stronger focus on single and good campaign(not that I have ANY idea how this would be done) we would be seeing it on games shelves rather then having to order from sharpnel.

Well. It is not fixed for >ME<. The fix is a Windows executable. I use Linux. But more to the point, your term 'out of control pretenders' illustrates the real problem. In my single-player games, I can assure you that those pretenders never did anything I didn't wish them to. I just wish that they would do more. And I miss them. IT IS NOT THE SAME AS MULTIPLAYER.

Well the game is built on a set of parameters. (Like Research, spells at certain levels, certain costs, certain effects). Building Pretenders is built or 'balanced' on a set of parameters (by way of the points you are given at the beginning) for both humans and AI (though most of the AI are given more points based on difficulty).

So if the game is built on a set of parameters and you change them then you are not addressing the balance at all but your own whims. Which is fine for SP and you can do it (Hey, I'm sorry about Linux, maybe you should ask the same guy who made the windows Version to see if he can tweak up a Linux).

Just because the Dev's don't support it outside of a modding aspect doesn't mean they are 'ignoring SP'. It just means that they envision people playing the game as they intended it (because they made it). It's like saying "Why can't this RTS be a FPS straight out of the box?" While some of it is limited by the engine, other parts are not.

As for MP balance being SP, yes, it is true. MP is much more exploitive than SP ever will be, since humans are base by nature and will use everything they can inside the rules to win for the most part. In SP there is not that drive, and if you are getting beaten you more often look for an exploit against the AI as opposed to abusing the options. This is a generalization but I feel safe in saying it.

Maybe it doesn't 'add' to your fun, but I don't think they are balacing the game for SP fun, they are balancing the game so that you can use just one set of tactics/units/abilities/spells/nation to consistantly win thus making it boring for both SP and MP.

[Miles]

Babbled by Miles:

Please don't think that I dislike the game. I love it. However, you have to realize the it doesn't really have singleplayer. It is ALWAYS multiplayer. Sometimes you play with humans. Sometimes you play with AI's. It works REALLY well, when the AI's pass the Turing test and are indistinguishable from humans. But, when the AI's fail the test, playing without humans can suck.

I should never have used the word 'suck' in this context. It is imprecise and unproductive (IE a lie.)

What I should have said is:

The beginning of a new single-player Dom2 game is always new and fresh. The possibilities are almost infinite. Minor changes make major differences in gameplay. Each game is a new adventure.

In mid-game, singleplay can become predictable. However, this predictability can be avoided via new maps and mods.

At end-game, singleplay always becomes tedious. You know where you are going. You know how to get there. However, the actual doing is work. The only way to avoid extended tedium, is to NEVER play large maps in singleplay. Anything over 80 provinces is probably a bad idea.

Overall, the whole experience is positive. I greatly enjoy playing Dom2 single-player.

Hmm. Sounds like I am engaged in a series of love affairs... No wonder my wife looks at me strange when I start playing.

Anywho, I should hever have used the word 'suck' in this context. Not, when I can still remember the hell that is MOO3.

Miles

[ January 15, 2004, 22:55: Message edited by: Miles ]

[Miles]

Originally posted by Zen:
Maybe it doesn't 'add' to your fun, but I don't think they are balacing the game for SP fun, they are balancing the game so that you can use just one set of tactics/units/abilities/spells/nation to consistantly win thus making it boring for both SP and MP.

I think that 'balance' is another concept that is unproductive in this discussion.

You see, it looks to me like balance is a multiplay ONLY concept. Within a multiplay game, balance can be defined with almost mathematical precision. It can be refined by successive trials. After each trial, everybody can tell if there is more balance or less. Thru successive approximation, balance can be maximized until some change in game design starts the cycle up again.

However, it seems to me that balance is meaningless in singleplay. Or to put it another way: It ain't balanced if it ain't fun.

You see, it seems to me that much of the enjoyment of the game in multiplay comes thru the human interaction. In this sense, maybe we can say that Dom2 allows strategic gamers to speak eloquently to each other.

In singleplay, enjoyment comes thru other factors. Exploration, surmountable unpredictability, and the sense of accomplishment are essential components in singleplay success. Balance means very little, unless it adds to the other three factors.

The fact that I enjoy Dom2 singleplayer so much, is a complete mystery to me. I should probably stop thinking about it before I do myself an injury.

Miles

[ January 15, 2004, 22:58: Message edited by: Miles ]

Ever play a game where all you need to use is one strategy to win? Say "Put all your research into this area, get this spell/technology, win"?

Those games are far too common. And yes, you can play them even if that flaw exists, and many do, but if you ever really get in a bind you can fall back on that. That's where balance comes into play.

It may not be *for* SP, but it in no way hurts it, other than you using exploitive strategies vs the computer instead of people and your 'fun' by winning easy is gone. Whereas MP (the OTHER half of the people playing the game) is dramatically hurt by it.

I'm all for SP and I'm all for helping out the SP games, but Mod Tools exist for you to make whatever kind of game you want and play them SP until you drool. In the near future they will add to them the ability to make spells, items, and whatever else they intend. So you can make the game how you want it to and unbalance the game as much as you need to enjoy it.