Turmoil 3 / Luck 3?

[Zeldor]

Hoplosterum:

That topic was here many many times. There are max 3 events you can get + spells that look like event + conquering enemy provs, where events happened. If that combo was good people would take it often in MP. But it just isn't worth it.

[Jazzepi]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

Hoplosterum:

That topic was here many many times. There are max 3 events you can get + spells that look like event + conquering enemy provs, where events happened. If that combo was good people would take it often in MP. But it just isn't worth it.

I agree.

Every time I take turmoil 3 / luck 3, it's just complete garbage compared to Order 3 / Misfortune 2.

Misfortune is hilarious, actually, it's so /good/ for you. Misfortune's bad events generally are either "something terrible happens to a province" like everyone gets eaten, or "some neutrals attack your province". Mid-> late game the second category type of events you can easily remedy with a modicum of PD if your PD is good, otherwise you can just dump 20 into a province and have basic immunity from those events in that province.

The nice part about misfortune in this case is that it increases the number of events that occur. This means that you have a greater chance for neutral events and good events as well.

Jazzepi

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by Jazzepi

I agree.

Every time I take turmoil 3 / luck 3, it's just complete garbage compared to Order 3 / Misfortune 2.

The nice part about misfortune in this case is that it increases the number of events that occur. This means that you have a greater chance for neutral events and good events as well.

I disagree. I think I've seen four non-spell events on a "stable" turn, i.e. I didn't get any provinces, didn't lose any provinces, didn't do anything funny. This is in the "I think" and "if I recall" category, but I still disagree.

It's silly to favour the scale combination that costs more. Luck 2/Turmoil 1 might be (or might not) be competitive against Order 3/Misf 2. Money is so important I wouldn't take Turmoil 2 without also taking money-making scales besides luck.

And finally, while misfortune increases the number of events compared to neutral luck, it skews them towards bad events more than it increases their amount. I'd guess that in average, you get at most as many good events as neutral luck, probably less - and many more bad events, of course. How is that nice?

[Jazzepi]

It's silly to favour the scale combination that costs more. Luck 2/Turmoil 1 might be (or might not) be competitive against Order 3/Misf 2. Money is so important I wouldn't take Turmoil 2 without also taking money-making scales besides luck.

You're missing the point. The decision for me is binary, the reason I'm comparion those two scale choices is because they're the most efficient choices for that slot. Either you take O3/M2 or you take T3/L3. There's absolutely no reason to take something in between, unless you enjoy throwing away points for the anti-synery of Order and Luck, in which case you need to rethink your design because you've reached a point where you're wasting points.

I avoid taking misfortune 3 because it creates the potential for really, really large barbarian events, which you can't easily defend against with PD, and go beyond the normal annoyances, of having to send a middling force to recapture the province.

To explain what I was trying to say about the misfortune actually being a benefit, think about it this way. If misfortune only increased the good/bad of an event, then we wouldn't have this conversation, but since it increases the *amount* of events at the same time, something different is going on.

Because of the fact that /most/ events from misfortune 2, and decent scales, are negligible in effect compared to their luck counterparts (I've yet to run into a -1,000 gold event, and even running O3/M2 in all my games, even with death scales, I've still yet to run into any really bad plague events) you don't really care about the skewing of events towards bad, since you can basically ignore the effect of most bad events.

For example, if you go from 10 events, to 15 events because you have M2 instead of a neutral luck scale, then you have more random events. More chances for you to find arcane labratories, to hang witches from trees and get their gems, etc. etc. While you also increase your chances of getting a bad event out of those 15, most of those events you can simply ignore anyways with a little preparation, so the increase the # of events is actually a benefit.

And let me add one last thing. /Really/ bad events early in your capital, are generally devastating, but they happen so infrequently (mind you out of all of your territories they have to happen in your capital to really ruin you) that you're running a minuscule chance that you might get knocked out of the game. Unlike with Luck, you can easily bow out of the game that your Misfortune has knocked you out of. Whereas with Luck, you need to consistently get good events early. Sure it might pay off over the course of 100 turns. But you don't have 100 turns to sit around and wait for those gold events to build up, and make your income match that of a player who had O3/M2, who unlike you with L3/T3, knows what his income will be, and will have a /huge/ advantage over you patrolling on the first turn, as well.

Jazzepi

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Jazzepi

You're missing the point. The decision for me is binary, the reason I'm comparion those two scale choices is because they're the most efficient choices for that slot. Either you take O3/M2 or you take T3/L3. There's absolutely no reason to take something in between, unless you enjoy throwing away points for the anti-synery of Order and Luck, in which case you need to rethink your design because you've reached a point where you're wasting points.

That's a silly supposition. By the time you climb past 20 provinces you are often hitting the cap we're all discussing, even with scales that are not optimal event generators.

Also, Misf2 can be more painful for certain nations with exceptionally poor PD. I've seen 20-23 PD get spanked by barbarians a few times as monkey nations, or Nief for example. So what you are saying then, if the only viable combos are O3/Misf2 or T3/L3, and you find the Misf to be too painful with that nation, then you MUST go T3/L3 with those nations to be efficient and competitive.

Also worthy to note that while Misf is exceptionally painful for some, it's much less painful for those with cheap and accessible fortune tellers. The relative value of scales will be different for all nations, depending on what tools they are given. Therefore, it's a far too sweeping generalization to state that these 2 scales must be maxed, and must be maxed in opposition of eachother.

Just as an example also - the 3000g event is only possible through O3/L3, as well as I believe Oleg's Alchemical Machine, which gives a permanent 100g boost to a province.

So it takes you longer for that combination to spool up to maximum effect, but while it does, you are somewhat insulated from disruptive events, and when you are finally getting 3/turn, you are going to be seeing constant and consistent income boosts. Of course, you may argue that such scales are nearly impossible with an awake SC - to which I can only say, "So?".

[Adept]

[quote=JimMorrison;640818]

Originally Posted by Jazzepi

Just as an example also - the 3000g event is only possible through O3/L3

If this is a recent change, then maybe. AFAIK the only requirement is Luck +3, and order has nothing to do with it. I've had this several times, and I never go with maxed out order and luck.

[JimMorrison]

[quote=Adept;640836]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

If this is a recent change, then maybe. AFAIK the only requirement is Luck +3, and order has nothing to do with it. I've had this several times, and I never go with maxed out order and luck.

Odd, it was stated as such in another thread. After I learned of the scale restrictions on events, I started paying much closer attention. I can't say about previously, but since I learned that, I've only seen that event in a massive scales build, and otherwise the largest I ever seem to get is the 1500g event.

[Jazzepi]

To JimMorrison:

>>or "some neutrals attack your province". Mid-> late game the second category type of events you can easily remedy with a modicum of PD if your PD is good, otherwise you can just dump 20 into a province and have basic immunity from those events in that province.<<

I'll just quote myself because I'm a giant elitist douche, and it's fun to pretend like you haven't actually read what I already wrote.

I think Bandar log has /exceptionally/ terrible PD. I mean, there was a huge thread with a guy on here who was convinced that Bandar log's inability to win was based solely on the awfulness of their PD alone. Now, he might have been a big jerk, but he was probably right about how bad the PD was.

Because of this Bandar log doesn't fall under the net I was trying to cast because they can't simply dump money into PD, and become immune to the majority of the invasion bad luck events. It's probably poor wording on my part. I'm tired, and now I have to go buy TEN POUNDS OF GROUND BEEF.

So in general, for most races in the game, your only choices are O3/M2 or T3/L3. In the same vein, I always start my scales off with Magic 1, and I rarely change that anymore. You'd have to find a good reason to make me waste a tick to get to M2, and I think Drain 2 is terrible unless you have a race that is resistant to it.

Oh, and JimMorrison, I will kill you with an ice pick.

Jazzepi

PS. I think your contention that at 20 provinces you start hitting the 3 events a turn most of the time is incorrect, and makes you a poopyface.

[JimMorrison]

I never knew that you were so horrified by ground cow meat, that you could erupt into such a display of..... eruption!


Anyway, the wording of your quote was really weird, it makes it sound like you are saying "if your PD is good, *otherwise* you can just dump 20 into a province". I think you were trying to say if you get good PD, 20 will save you from almost any indie events. Which is probably true.


This is the quote that I was more trying to address though:

You're missing the point. The decision for me is binary, the reason I'm comparion those two scale choices is because they're the most efficient choices for that slot. Either you take O3/M2 or you take T3/L3. There's absolutely no reason to take something in between, unless you enjoy throwing away points for the anti-synery of Order and Luck, in which case you need to rethink your design because you've reached a point where you're wasting points.

Because taken together, you're basically stating that there are only 2 options worth ever taking at all. Therefore if poor PD makes O3/M2 unattractive, your only other option is T3/L3. So my first argument being that you only have to look at it that harshly if you are married to an awake SC, as they are expensive, so your points on scales must be carefully spent. But beyond that, I'm just saying that if you don't want Misf, you're not killing yourself by going L3, and you're not killing yourself by not going O3, either.


Im not sure that the comparison with M2 is really fair either (I think you are in a bit of a frenzy here, over this ground beef!). M1 gives a measurable and valuable benefit, M2 does not. Meanwhile, M2 does not even give much of any abstract or indirect benefit, whereas all gradations of the Order and Luck scales give you a quantifiable change in variables.

Granted, I would agree that it's unwise to have both Order and Luck scales left at even. One or the other should certainly be boosted at all times (and I'd still agree that usually it should be Order first), but I am pretty sure that if you can afford it, O3 or L3 with the other scale set even, can be a good way to go in some cases. I recently did a game with Caelum with 1T/3L, and it was chugging along great until my Virtue got a disease (that little **** ) which brought the whole machine to its knees.


And I will see your icepick Jazzepi, and raise you a wooden spoon. O.O


Oh and beyond that, I think by 20 provinces, the T3/L3 build should get 3 events almost every single turn. Less maximized builds maybe don't peak until about 30 provinces. But when I take O3/L3 I get plenty of events, and even with O3/L- I seem to get quite a lot of events. Maybe this is something worth plugging into a test game..... Hmmmmm.