Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[Squirrelloid]

It wasn't i was limited on templars by resources, i was limited on *any* troops by resources. With adjacent mountains.

Ulm's troops take so many resources its hard to imagine them being *gold* limited no matter what you do to your scales (except maybe take sloth 3, which sounds like a terrible idea).

Also, since 4 Black Templars + a Black Priest make a great expansion party that doesn't take losses, and you can combine these into larger parties when you need to, Black Templars would seem to be ideal for 'efficient expansion' - especially since your infantry do take losses and are less effective against things like HC (which are common in LA).

[Tolkien]

regarding the LA Ulm debate (templars and templars vs. guardians)

Just a quick question Fanto: what kind of bless did you put on the templars? I've been running some tests with your 4 templar+priest expansion parties (with a 4N4E4D4S4B bless: I compromised my scales more then I'd like to). They do great against light infantry/archers/light barbarians, but the parties die when put up against barbarians (regular barbarians), HC, or large numbers of HI. I can see using Call Horror+scout against these types of indy provinces, but Call Horror is blood-4, which, if you're going to start blood hunting early (like you should), you're going to be tight in research (as well as unable to touch evocation/construction for some time). I can see the strategy working pretty well, I just think it cuts into Ulm's other research priorities, and leaves Ulm somewhat vulnerable to attack. What was the pretender build you used (since the build has a big impact on the optimal strategy for a nation)? Now that I think about it, you can probably incorporate parties of templars in a general infantry/ranger/villain expansion to make the whole thing go quicker and smoother. I'm going to have to look into that.

Squirrelloid: I ran some tests with the black templars and the ghoul guardians (with the same bless) versus the bless-rush units of other nations (with prophets casting banishment on the ghoul guardians). Against Utgard woodmen with E9N9 bless, I sent 6 templars+prophet vs 6 woodsmen+prophet. The templars are slaughtered every time, while the woodsmen suffer low casualties (1-2, 3 at the most) (a very bad attrition rate, considering woodsmen are cheaper, more resource friendly, and generally more useful). Against 12 ghoul guardians+S1D1 fortune teller (which just cast frighten the entire time) vs. 6 woodsmen+prophet (casting banishment), the guardians win every time (with casualties of 1-5 vs 6), in despite of the banishment. With 6 templars vs 6 F9W9 Vans, the Vans win everytime with barely a scratch. With 12 guardians vs 6 Vans (again with a prophet spamming banishment), the guardians and Vans win some of the time, depending on whose dominion they fight on. If on opposing dominion, guardians generally kill 3-4 Vans (and leaving the remaining Vans with 90ish fatigue) and suffer 7-9 casualties before routing, while on friendly dominion, they kill all of the Vans, while suffering 7-9 casualties. Against Mictlan, I sent 12 Jaguar Warriors (F9W9N4) vs 6 Templars. The templars die to the jags every time, while the jags suffer 1-2 casualties. When I sent ghoul guardians, they won every time (0-3 casualties vs 9-12 casualties). Also note, I omitted smite from the tests against the templars. Banishment played a fairly minor role from the prophet in the attrition of the ghoul guardians. So in conclusion, Squirrelloid, I find your claim that ghoul guardians aren't effective, while templars are effective, against common sacred-rushes to be erroneous at best. Templars are slaughtered every time in the sacred-vs.-sacred battles without the interference of smite, while dealing negligible damage against sacreds themselves. Ghoul Guardians, although being undead (which, on the other hand, makes them an awesome counter against hydras), generally don't suffer all that much against banishment, and will still eat sacred for lunch, dinner, breakfast, and brunch, in no particular order. They completely destroyed Mictlan's jaguars, contrary to your claim that the jaguars would prevail. I'm going to have to test Gath's giants, but I foresee a slaughter along the lines of Utgard, in terms of casualties, as a N9E9 bless would be similarly optimal for them.

In conclusion, while I think the Templars have a niche for LA Ulm, and you can definitely expand with them, I don't think they're ideal by themselves as a method of expansion, or warrant a bless strategy. They could definitely benefit and and should receive a slight 10-20 reduction in price, but I don't think it'll be too major, or will allow Templars to really flourish. They'll still be a niche unit, albeit now a more cost-effective niche unit. Really it comes down to the age old question: ghoul guardians, or black templars? When it comes down to that, guardians will win out in most situations.

tl;dr: cheaper Black Templars=good. Some Black Templars in expansion=good(?). Templars=/=anti-sacred. Ghoul Guardians>>sacreds. Ghoul Guardians>>Black Templars.

[Fantomen]

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Just a quick question Fanto: what kind of bless did you put on the templars? I've been running some tests with your 4 templar+priest expansion parties (with a 4N4E4D4S4B bless: I compromised my scales more then I'd like to). They do great against light infantry/archers/light barbarians, but the parties die when put up against barbarians (regular barbarians), HC, or large numbers of HI. I can see using Call Horror+scout against these types of indy provinces, but Call Horror is blood-4, which, if you're going to start blood hunting early (like you should), you're going to be tight in research (as well as unable to touch evocation/construction for some time). I can see the strategy working pretty well, I just think it cuts into Ulm's other research priorities, and leaves Ulm somewhat vulnerable to attack. What was the pretender build you used (since the build has a big impact on the optimal strategy for a nation)? Now that I think about it, you can probably incorporate parties of templars in a general infantry/ranger/villain expansion to make the whole thing go quicker and smoother. I'm going to have to look into that.

Call horror is now blood 2 in CBM, but before the last update it was blood 1. So you can get it pretty quick. In that game (cbm1.5) I used a f2d4b6 awake blood fountain, with the intention to go for vampires and soul contracts. Worked out well enough but If I could start over I would have used a a4d4b4 vampire queen probably.

I don´t advocate heavy use of templars anyway, but during expansion just two templars flanking makes a big difference. The thing is you can buy them right away and they don´t require undead leadership like the guardians. Past early game I´d say the templars are too expensive in most cases. So quite handy as flankers during early expansion but little else, definately not worth spending any extra points for a blessing.

In conclusion, while I think the Templars have a niche for LA Ulm, and you can definitely expand with them, I don't think they're ideal by themselves as a method of expansion, or warrant a bless strategy. They could definitely benefit and and should receive a slight 10-20 reduction in price, but I don't think it'll be too major, or will allow Templars to really flourish. They'll still be a niche unit, albeit now a more cost-effective niche unit. Really it comes down to the age old question: ghoul guardians, or black templars? When it comes down to that, guardians will win out in most situations.

Agreed 100%