Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[Mobhack]

Rear Mgs - it is up to the OOB designer to determine if they are usefully placed or not. As with some odd armoured car I added to Swiss "blue" OOB that had one in each corner - there I made the decision to give it 2 since probably 2 would bear in each direction.

Many Japanese tanks have their "co-ax" in the turret rear, as do some KV and IS series.

SP does not have any concept of "rear" armament - see the UK Archer tank destroyer.

In the great scheme of things, its neither here nor there quite frankly. It might get some rivet-counter's underwear in a twist should you include one, but who really cares about that?!

Andy

[blazejos]

Just do like to mention about subject of horse carts with Machine-gun called Taczanka. They were invented by Russians during civil war after revolution and they were intended as a machine-guns which can follow cavalry and give them immediately support without complicated unpacking and preparations. Poles copies this idea from soviets during 1920 war they were used by Cavalry army. Around 1928 standardisations happens and first model Taczanka wz.1928 was created with german maxim 1908 HMG was build icon for such type is 3491 they was equipped in three horses and can keep the speed of cavalry units but wasn't prepared for AA shooting.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by blazejos

Just do like to mention about subject of horse carts with Machine-gun called Taczanka. ...
...Around 1928 standardisations happens and first model Taczanka wz.1928 was created with german maxim 1908 HMG was build icon for such type is 3491 they was equipped in three horses and can keep the speed of cavalry units but wasn't prepared for AA shooting.

Indeed, if there's an icon, it's worth to add earlier model of taczanka, with wz.08 MG, available in 1/30-9/39, with radio 01. But, probably, its wz.08 MG should be AAMG as well. It isn't written directly, but according to a new booklet on Polish Maxims, a cavalry mount for wz.08 HMG, taken from the Schwarzlose, "enabled quick conversion for AA fire", comparing with MG-08 sledge mount. Probably there was an additional mast mounted (it could be mounted on some Polish trucks, carts and even horse wagons). I'll attach a photo of early taczanka.

Then, unit 548 Taczanka, apart from icon 3492, should be available from 1/36.
There could be "wz.28" or "wz.36" added to names, but it's not necessary IMO.


649-654 Austin AC's - in fact, in cars, that survived until the end of 20s, most probably armament was changed to standard-caliber 7.92mm MGs, first of all wz.05S (German MG-05/S). Weapon #200 could be renamed so, #202 is redundant.
(more on Austins http://derela.republika.pl/austin2.htm)

655, 656 Ford Tf-c - one of them is perfectly redundant - they differ only in a machinegun's name, with the same performance.

BTW: weapon 207 7.92wz.08/15TMG has class 3 instead of 5, and range 30, while weapons 200 and 202 have range 20 (they were all the same Maxims - it should be at least 24 - or 30 since they were water-cooled?)

668 Wz.29 [armoured truck] - it should be renamed Ursus and represent a different Police lightly armoured Ursus truck (it had no specific name, but I'd call it: "Ursus (panc.)" - short for "armoured"). I'll attach a proper photo - a current one shows unarmed loudspeaker car of unclear purpose (it isn't known, if it belonged to the army or police).
It actually could have an armament of rifles in loop-holes, maybe even wz.25 TMG (it had even a turret with some weapon mounting, but the photos doesn't show weapons).
Carry capacity was probably more - some 10.

693 Fiat 3000 L5/30 - Poland bought one Fiat 3000 in 7/31 (now: 1/30), most probably with MG armament (twin MGs, #224 fom Italian OOB) (if it was armed at all...).
"L5/30" Italian designation should be deleted.

699 TK-3 [prototype tank] - I'd call it "TK-3 nkm".

700 TKS-B [prototype tank] - not much improvement over TKS, but if we want to be precise, it was broken down in 1938 (rebuilt to TKS-D SP gun - http://derela.republika.pl/tkw.htm)

702-703 TKD [prototype tank] - it had no any special AP (sabot) ammo (it should increase HE by 5).
If we want to keep within facts, they weren't built of armour plates - maybe apart from a gun shield - http://derela.republika.pl/tkw.htm
Two units in the same class are redundant (I guess it was supposed to represent newer camo, which is a vague difference). Since a whole platoon of these vehicles was actually used for experiments and training (and even a reclaiming of Zaolzie province), I suggest to change class of unit 703 to 39 SP-gun, make it available in 5/32-3/39 (before the war only) and create a formation of two vehicles like "Prot. SPG Plt" or "Exp. SPG Plt" (until 9/39).
Unit 702 should be available then in 5/32 to 9/39.

704 TKD - there was no vehicle with 47mm Vickers gun, BUT it should be changed to actually used in combat TKS-D prototype, with #13 37mm wz.36 L45 gun, ammo: 68 rounds in total, crew 4, available 4/37-9/39, class 39 SP-gun, photo 29799.

715 220mm Battery - radio should be definitely 91, not 92 - it was a siege artillery of very dubious usefulness, rarely met in field.

725, 726 3in Mortar - photo should be 601 instead of a generic Soviet one.

[Pibwl]

730 DMntd Troopers, 731 Cavalry Squad - armament should be short #144 wz.29 carbine instead of long rifle ("wz.29 rifle" wasn't existing BTW).

But I've noticed another problem: #144 wz.29 carbine and #173 wz.98 carbine (600mm barrel) have correct lower range 8, than #178 wz.98 rifle (740 mm barrel). But currently they are handicapped against other nations, because German Kar.98k had the same 600mm barrel, SMLE had 640 mm, M1 Garand had 610 mm, and they all have range 10.

I don't think, that a range of these well-established rifles should be reduced, so maybe these carbines should have range 10, and a range of long rifles should be increased to 12? (like LMGs, which had barrels around 600mm BTW)

It concerns also weapons like: #112 8mm Lebel (800mm), Soviet OOB Mosin M91/30 (730mm), French OOB 231 Mle 16 Rifle (800mm).
Soviet OOB carbines 144, 178 have range 8, but they had only 508mm barrel.


736, 737 Bicycle Squad - armament as above

793, 796 Bren Carrier, Ammo Carrier - armament should be probably Bren, if they deserve MG armament at all (793 is used only by mortar section). In other case, it should be .303 rifle, or SMG.

[zastava128]

About the rifle/carbine ranges - I'm pretty sure this was standardized a few versions back. I remember the 8mm Lebel rifle used to have range 600m in an older version of WinSPWW2, for example.

If I understood correctly, the rifle names are for flavour only. Partially for balance reasons, and partially since, on the scale of this game, any differences are negligible. There's even been talk of replacing them all with just a generic "rifle" weapon (like it was in the original Steel Panthers games).

I'm not necessarily against your suggestion, but the above mentioned factors should be considered. In WinSPMBT a difference of 100m in rifle ranges (assault vs. battle rifle) can make a big difference. Now imagine if Soviet rifle squads had a 100m longer range than the German ones - it would make a *big* difference in gameplay.

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by zastava128

About the rifle/carbine ranges - I'm pretty sure this was standardized a few versions back. I remember the 8mm Lebel rifle used to have range 600m in an older version of WinSPWW2, for example.

I'm not necessarily against your suggestion, but the above mentioned factors should be considered. In WinSPMBT a difference of 100m in rifle ranges (assault vs. battle rifle) can make a big difference. Now imagine if Soviet rifle squads had a 100m longer range than the German ones - it would make a *big* difference in gameplay.

I think the crux of the matter is what is a rifle and what is a carbine and how do they actually differ. Carbines which fire normal full-power rifle cartridges had roughly the same effective range as full-length infantry rifles. Both are highly lethal to 1000+ meters and able to deliver suppressive area fire up to 600 meters at least. However, once LMGs became common, firing at such long ranges was usually (but not always) left to them and to specialized sniper and marksmen (Mind you, in WW1 and even WW2 those guys used normal infantry rifles and sometimes did not even have any special optical sights. They were just better shooters and perhaps had a better vision than the average rifleman.)

Any accuracy differences were more due to the user not being able to see his target and hit it at long ranges with just iron sights. If some difference has to be modeled in the game, then instead of giving the long barrel rifles a longer range, they should have slightly higher accuracy than carbines. That would better represent any inherent differences between them.

No, I am not suggesting this should be implemented in the game now, later or never. It's just what my reading, minimal experience in shooting rifles and talking to more experienced shooters of infantry personal weapons have made me think about the matter. Food for thought, if you will, nothing more.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

702-703 TKD [prototype tank] - ...
I suggest to change class of unit 703 to 39 SP-gun, make it available in 5/32-3/39 (before the war only) and create a formation of two vehicles like "Prot. SPG Plt" or "Exp. SPG Plt" (until 9/39).
...

704 TKD - there was no vehicle with 47mm Vickers gun, BUT it should be changed to actually used in combat TKS-D prototype, with #13 37mm wz.36 L45 gun, ammo: 68 rounds in total, crew 4, available 4/37-9/39, class 39 SP-gun, photo 29799.

Better class would be 139 Self propelled gun, so it is farther in armour purchase screen, as an experimental formation.

Although a name TKS-D is commonly used in books, but it seems, that a form TK-SD was more original (BTW: newer publications claim, that a tankette TKS was in fact written as TK-S in documents, so unit 426 might be changed).

Flamethrowers:

- There should be added infantry flamethrower units in 1930-39, class eg. 170 (there's no units in this class before 1940).
A flamethrower section reportedly had 7 men, with two #93 flamethrowers, carbines and probably grenades. Unit 500 may serve as a pattern, but I'll attach a photo of Polish FT's.

A section should be used in a flamethrower squad of 3 sections. A single section might be a formation as well.

- There should be also added flamethrower units of Warsaw Uprising, in 8/44-9/44 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_pattern_flamethrower)
A section should consist of 4 men, with pistols and one FT. Good and unused class seems 235 Partisan pioneer.
It should be used in single sections rather.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Flamethrowers:

- There should be added infantry flamethrower units in 1930-39, class eg. 170 (there's no units in this class before 1940).
A flamethrower section reportedly had 7 men, with two #93 flamethrowers, carbines and probably grenades. Unit 500 may serve as a pattern, but I'll attach a photo of Polish FT's.

A section should be used in a flamethrower squad of 3 sections. A single section might be a formation as well.
.

#93 flamethrowers ??? what is this ?? A flamethrower is universally the same in the game so any pre 1940 unit would use the same weapons as unit 500 and they will be the same unitclass and they will be available through the Engineer Pl

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

#93 flamethrowers ??? what is this ?? A flamethrower is universally the same in the game so any pre 1940 unit would use the same weapons as unit 500 and they will be the same unitclass and they will be available through the Engineer Pl

Sorry, it was supposed to be #83.

But they shouldn't be the same class IMO, because in 1939 we have #326 Enginer Sqd of class 140, while flamethrowers were used in separate flamethrower platoons, not in engineer squads.

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

...However, once LMGs became common, firing at such long ranges was usually (but not always) left to them and to specialized sniper and marksmen (Mind you, in WW1 and even WW2 those guys used normal infantry rifles and sometimes did not even have any special optical sights. They were just better shooters and perhaps had a better vision than the average rifleman.)

...and usually they had specially selected rifles, with best accuracy.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

...while flamethrowers were used in separate flamethrower platoons, not in engineer squads.

I'd like to precise it: I proposed to create a section, and 3 sections should be a squad (platoon-level in the game). A platoon consisted of 3 squads, but I don't think it's useful to create such big FT units.