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February 20th, 2005, 12:52 AM
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Private
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Re: Random Magic Paths - is it truly random?
So, does this have to do with true randomness not being possible within a system containing a limited number of variables?
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February 20th, 2005, 02:57 AM
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Second Lieutenant
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Re: Random Magic Paths - is it truly random?
A computer can never make really random numbers, a computer scientist has ensured me that that is the case as I believed it was. Instead it uses the clock to produce seemingly random numbers. The numbers themselve seem very much random, in fact, you could call them "virtually random".
True randomness is a rather complicated term, but according to my text randomness is part of anything who's probability of occurence or omission is <100%. So, I'd say that the probability of failure of a device, or the probability of throwing heads on a coin are still random, regardless of their distribution. Distributions just describe some specific random systems. So, I'd have to say no. It's just easier to feel you've grasped random with a coin flip.
Considering a random point on an infinitely long numberline is just a good way to illustrate a humans inability to truly understand certain concepts. Cosider a point on a numberline, if you take an infinitely small movement from that number to any other position on that numberline, there are an infinite number of uniques points between the first and the second, until the movement = 0.
Similarly, we make do with random models and distribution that resemble the things we can test. So, consider this, the probability of flipping heads or tails on a coin 1000 times is 9.3326E-302. IF the coin is flipped an infinite number of times, the probability of this occuring is 1.
In this example we have a demonstration of true randomness, with only two choices (heads or tails).
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February 20th, 2005, 03:48 AM
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Major General
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Re: Random Magic Paths - is it truly random?
Via's CPU's produce random numbers, using special hardware. A Turing Machine cannot make random numbers, but modern computers don't have all the limitations of Turing machines (as shown by Via).
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February 21st, 2005, 03:18 PM
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Second Lieutenant
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Re: Random Magic Paths - is it truly random?
Interesting... is this device a miniature Geiger-Muller tube with some sort of radioactive isotope in a sealed chamber (similar to the technology used to make smoke detectors)? Is there a website where I can see a press release for it--I couldn't seem to find one in my own search (although I didn't look very long).
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"Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt." -- Sun Tzu
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February 21st, 2005, 03:26 PM
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Second Lieutenant
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Re: Random Magic Paths - is it truly random?
That IS interesting. Basically, its like programming a robot to roll a die and then read the number, but it doesn't remove the theoretical limitation (that being that a computer is unable to come up with its own random numbers, in any case because you can forecast them knowing the time/function).
A very good use of it would be to make a pregenerated table or random numbers to seed your RNG.
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February 21st, 2005, 06:38 PM
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Major General
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Re: Random Magic Paths - is it truly random?
Quote:
Verjigorm said:
Interesting... is this device a miniature Geiger-Muller tube with some sort of radioactive isotope in a sealed chamber (similar to the technology used to make smoke detectors)?
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Hehe... no=) It's pretty simple - it uses some sort of temperature-monitoring circuitry, with random thermal fluctuations accumulating in a large buffer to be stored until a random number is needed. The chip also has a built-in hardware cryptography engine (using AES) and I think the random numbers are utilized by that, though they are also availible to software running on the computer.
Obviously, on the macro scale, temperature is not a purely random thing, or else chemistry would be a lost cause. However, if you measure temperature precisely enough, you start getting true randomness from microscopic sources, just like if you track a dust particle closely enough, you see random Brownian motion. Is Brownian motion random? Yes, because air molecules are small enough that the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle and momentum changes from randomly emitted photons start to play a significant role.
If you want to learn more about it, try doing a search for Via's hardware encryption engine. Also, either Ace's Hardware or ViaArena did a big feature on it a year or so back.
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February 20th, 2005, 10:03 AM
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Re: Random Magic Paths - is it truly random?
Ok, so although the occurence of any given number within the set of variables will be random, there will be an emergent pattern (the distribution) which is not. Is my comprehension of what you are saying correct?
Please forgive my ignorance concerning stats and probs, but I've never taken any math courses beyond basic algebra and trig. Never really needed them. I have a tendency to only learn things as I need them, unless it's something I find interesting. :-/
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February 20th, 2005, 02:56 PM
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Second Lieutenant
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Re: Random Magic Paths - is it truly random?
It is true that a computer can give numbers that have a nearly random distribution, BUT because they use a distribution (my brother called it an MT, for I think Marsenne Twist) and a seed (from the clock) there is an element of forecasting available that is completely impossible with true random systems. I think ANSI, which regulate random numbers I guess, has determined the the MT is the new method of choice! Still sophisticated software CAN match/nearly match random distributions, but it can't come up with random numbers. Nearly matching distributions is all you have to prove, and I don't believe that it was ever speculated that computers couldn't come close to random. In a logical system such as the computer, its impossible for the PC to pull a number out of it's B***, it's programmed how to follow a distribution.
Bone_daddy, yes, random systems have their own "patterns". Such as the normal distribution, where outliers of very high numbers are explained, but most number fall close to the average.
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